System Shock Review

[JDR13]

You want to say that you can repair the missing option of mouse look with a key mapper?

What missing option? As DArtagnan already pointed out, mouse look didn't even exist yet when that game was made. I'm talking about the main complaint most people have about not being able to remap any of the keys because they're hard coded.

 

[Thrasher]

So, is inventory management really tedious? That's a gamekiller for me.

I've finally gotten used to the Goldbox FR inventory management nightmare....

 

[JDR13]

So, is inventory management really tedious? That's a gamekiller for me.

No, it's not bad at all actually.

 

[Thrasher]

What other games is it similar to?

 

[JDR13]

What other games is it similar to?

System Shock is pretty unique, even today. I can't think of any modern game that is really comparable.

Here's a good description and review of the game.
http://www.reloaded.org/download/System-Shock-Portable/369/

 

[Thrasher]

Not in general, just the inventory management.

 

[bkrueger]

What missing option? As DArtagnan already pointed out, mouse look didn't even exist yet when that game was made. I'm talking about the main complaint most people have about not being able to remap any of the keys because they're hard coded.

I know all that, but the history of the discussion was as follows:

- I said that I had problems with the interfcace, in particular missing mouse look,
- then JemyM said that indeed the interface was a main concern for many people
- and then you talked about keyboard mapping.

So your remark was the one out of context, as JemyM correctly pointed out and that is what I wanted to support with my rethorical question.

 

[JemyM]

While you can remap the keys to fit a WASD setup, using 3rd party software, you cannot have mouselook in System Shock, so it doesn't really help that much anyway. Besides, there are advantages of using the keys as they are anyway, since QWE is used for leaning. Change W to "forward" and you have to assign a new key for "stop leaning". It's easier to just learn the keys as they are.

 

[Thrasher]

Well if yoiou have been using WASD for many many years, then it's actually easier to continue to use those keys per today's standard configuration.

 

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Well if yoiou have been using WASD for many many years, then it's actually easier to continue to use those keys per today's standard configuration.

Other than vice versa, actually.

Or so it seems to me.

 

[JemyM]

Well if yoiou have been using WASD for many many years, then it's actually easier to continue to use those keys per today's standard configuration.

WASD is just the directions, since you have no mouselook and aiming works differently, and you have 9 body positions with lean left/right, crouch and prone, you haven't really fixed the keys if you fix W to move forward. Needless to say, mousewheel isn't working either.

 

[JDR13]

I know all that, but the history of the discussion was as follows:

- I said that I had problems with the interfcace, in particular missing mouse look,
- then JemyM said that indeed the interface was a main concern for many people
- and then you talked about keyboard mapping.

So your remark was the one out of context, as JemyM correctly pointed out and that is what I wanted to support with my rethorical question.

Except that my remark was not out of context, and you've supported nothing.

If mouse look did not even exist then, then it is safe to say that it could not possibly have been a "missing option". Unless you have a different definition of "option" than the rest of us.

More importantly though, if you look at the part I quoted (you obviously didn't), then you see he clearly said "the controls" (twice), thus referring to the controls in general, and not just mouse look.

*Edit*
As far as your original question is concerned, there actually are remapping programs that allow you to map keystrokes to each direction of the X-Y axis on your mouse. I'm not sure how well it would work in a game like SS, and I didn't try it myself because, personally, I had no issues with the mouse functions.

 

[JDR13]

It's easier to just learn the keys as they are.

That's definitely subjective. SS was *much* more enjoyable to me after I remapped all the functions to the number pad and nearby keys.

I'm not trying to claim that the scheme I used was superior, but it was definitely superior for me. I got the idea for the key mapper over at the TTLG forums, where the keyboard controls for SS were a popular topic.

 

[DArtagnan]

I also found the standard SS layout to be relatively easy to use - and I've never felt a need to remap keys. Looking Glass put a lot of thought into the keyboard layout - and it's quite logical. They also did this in UU and UU2 - so it's no wonder they had some experience doing it. But SS was the first game to have such advanced ways of looking/crouching/leaning.

I do miss mouse-look something terrible - and I can definitely see it as a valid point of criticism. It's just that since it wasn't invented, it would be a point of criticism that you can overlook if you're the kind of person who can put yourself in the past. I can do that easily, because I've grown up with games and I played games before the mouse was even invented or available for home computers. I'm sure many of us here have the same background, but for some reason I don't "forget" how things were and I find myself at home quickly. I can enjoy games if they have certain strengths and don't fall below a certain level of aesthetics.

The challenge is to get comfortable with the various ways of leaning and crouching. To criticise the game a little, I'll say it was a complete waste of time implementing such "realistic" positioning because you don't really use it in the game - beyond simply leaning and crouching (oh, and the occasional going prone to crawl). They should just have had crouch and lean keys like modern shooters. But again, they were treading new ground - without anything to learn from. It's from THAT perspective that I praise the game - because if you treat it like it's a modern game, the UI and visuals will suffer quite badly.

So you have to be able to put yourself in the past, to enjoy the aspects that I personally consider unmatched even today. No other game has this particular combination of strengths done so well. Not even System Shock 2, and certainly not Bioshock which is really just a shooter with a few dumbed down features from its legacy thrown in.

 

[JemyM]

So you have to be able to put yourself in the past, to enjoy the aspects that I personally consider unmatched even today. No other game has this particular combination of strengths done so well. Not even System Shock 2, and certainly not Bioshock which is really just a shooter with a few dumbed down features from its legacy thrown in.

There's a difference between being a critic and an apologetic, and I think you confused my intended role in my minireview above.

I belong to the group who can stretch myself to get a 15 year old game to work, and play it through just to see what it was about, but even if I manage to stretch myself enough to enjoy bits of an ancient game, I still must be honest when speaking to people who cannot stretch themselves like I can. I must ask myself "is this game fun?" rather than "could I make myself have fun with this game?".

If I praise an old game without even mentioning the issues people might have with it, then I might actually hurt my reputation, especially when the problems are obvious and even told outright by others. There are people who said that they trust my opinion, if they, based on my recommendation, try a game and find it impossible to get past the issues (which I in my eagerness to praise the game forgot to mention), they might not take my word for a game again.

In my recent Starcraft: Brood War conclusion, I reached the opinion that yes, this is a game so good that I can recommend the game to anyone, despite being 10 years old. In the case of SS, I have to mention the flaws, because I know they will get in the way of many peoples ability to have fun with it.

I'll say it was a complete waste of time implementing such "realistic" positioning because you don't really use it in the game - beyond simply leaning and crouching (oh, and the occasional going prone to crawl). They should just have had crouch and lean keys like modern shooters. But again, they were treading new ground - without anything to learn from. It's from THAT perspective that I praise the game - because if you treat it like it's a modern game, the UI and visuals will suffer quite badly.

I didn't find leaning to be useful, I often got shot anyway even when proning/leaning out of a corner. Eventually I stopped to bother and pumped every monster full with a flechette/scorpion mag instead, reloading the game if I got too much damage.

 

[JDR13]

So you have to be able to put yourself in the past, to enjoy the aspects that I personally consider unmatched even today. No other game has this particular combination of strengths done so well. Not even System Shock 2, and certainly not Bioshock which is really just a shooter with a few dumbed down features from its legacy thrown in.

So true. It's a shame that the complexity of FPS games has actually degraded over the years rather than evolved.

 

[DArtagnan]

There's a difference between being a critic and an apologetic, and I think you confused my intended role in my minireview above.

I haven't thought about your role, because it's not something I see as relevant to making my point - which was not to you, but those who might consider playing the game.

I belong to the group who can stretch myself to get a 15 year old game to work, and play it through just to see what it was about, but even if I manage to stretch myself enough to enjoy bits of an ancient game, I still must be honest when speaking to people who cannot stretch themselves like I can. I must ask myself "is this game fun?" rather than "could I make myself have fun with this game?".

You must do what you feel is right, and that's not something I would ever interfere with. I'm not sure if you think that's what I'm trying to do.

I don't think SS is a game anyone should need to apologize for, and because someone like you doesn't appreciate it to the same extent as others might - it's not like it matters much. You have an opinion and you should speak it just as you feel is right.

If I praise an old game without even mentioning the issues people might have with it, then I might actually hurt my reputation, especially when the problems are obvious and even told outright by others. There are people who said that they trust my opinion, if they, based on my recommendation, try a game and find it impossible to get past the issues (which I in my eagerness to praise the game forgot to mention), they might not take my word for a game again.

Well, if you want my personal opinion - which I suspect you don't - then I think you're playing games as an obsession more than a pleasurable passtime. Given the amount of games you write about as having completed - there's no way you really have the time to delve into them and enjoy them as they're meant to be enjoyed.

You're playing them as a race to get through as many as possible - which is probably enjoyable on some level - but there's no way I would personally use your opinion as a trustworthy guide to whether a game is enjoyable or not. Not that I use the opinions of other people much when it comes to games, because I have enough experience to guage these things in most cases without input.

I could be wrong about you, but you certainly give off a vibe of being obsessive about completing games. You seem to have crossed the line where you can kick back and truly take a game in - especially when it's old and suffers from quaint flaws.

I'm sure in your mind I'm defending System Shock based on nostalgia - because you keep saying that. You ignore that JDR, for instance, played it only two years ago and considers it one of the best games in existence. I replay it from time to time, and I almost got through it only 6 months ago but managed to get stuck - if you can believe that.

I have the ability to distinguish between when my enjoyment is nostalgia and when it's not. Not that there aren't elements of nostalgia involved - but I can say with absolute confidence that System Shock is one of the strongest game designs I've ever experienced - and it represents the peak of evolution in terms of its specific subgenre. It's quite probably the best game I've ever played.

In my recent Starcraft: Brood War conclusion, I reached the opinion that yes, this is a game so good that I can recommend the game to anyone, despite being 10 years old. In the case of SS, I have to mention the flaws, because I know they will get in the way of many peoples ability to have fun with it.

Of course, and in your opinion the flaws are great and in my opinion they're not. It's just an opinion, afterall. I think Starcraft is a great game - but I could spend hours pointing out flaws, but that'd still just be my opinion.

But ask yourself this, even with Starcraft: BW being so great - did you really enjoy it for what it is, or did you simply recognise that it was good based on your experience, and you got through it because it didn't really challenge you with its interface and attractive 2D graphics?

Was it a moving experience, or did you find yourself truly engaged in its universe? Did it make you think about stuff or did you get stuck and by investigative methods figure out what to do?

Blizzard games are brilliantly executed, but they can't conjure up an original idea to save their lives, and they certainly don't create thought-provoking games. They're the masters of a pleasant experience - but that's about it.

I didn't find leaning to be useful, I often got shot anyway even when proning/leaning out of a corner. Eventually I stopped to bother and pumped every monster full with a flechette/scorpion mag instead, reloading the game if I got too much damage.

Leaning is quite useful if used correctly - and especially early on. You have to be rather careful though, and it requires more patience than you seem to have. Again, likely because you play these games as a race or an obsession. I'd recommend playing fewer games and staying far away from games like System Shock that require a certain level of patience and ability to look beyond flaws based on time of release and the stage of evolution.

If I'm not mistaken, System Shock was the very first FP game to even have leaning, so to have the implementation be slightly rough is perhaps understandable. But even so, it's just another aspect of the game being way ahead of its time.

I think you have great experience with games, and I'm sure you could teach people a lot about gaming history. But I also think you have an unfortunate approach to playing them - as I've said - and for your own sake, I think it could be healthy to do something else in between sessions. The best games are often the most demanding, and they beckon you to become part of their universe. If you're playing them simply as a step to the next game, so you have another game to write about, then you're really doing yourself a disservice - not to mention those who would read your reviews and trust that you've played the game with the right attitude going in.

 

[JemyM]

Leaning is quite useful if used correctly - and especially early on. You have to be rather careful though, and it requires more patience than you seem to have.

I had started to write a reply to you, but when I reached this comment, I understood that you aren't here to engage in a mature discussion, you are just here to troll.

Why do you make these idiot insinuations? Are you trying to insult people, or do you have a serious problem understanding anything beyond your own head? You have made up your mind that SS is the best game ever, that there's nothing wrong with the game, and anyone who make any criticism against it must in one way or another be a flawed person. Both you and JDR13 jumped on me in the other SS thread and now you keep on insulting me here. I had enough of it and I am done with you. It's just a game damnit.

 

[DArtagnan]

I had started to write a reply to you, but when I reached this comment, I understood that you aren't here to engage in a mature discussion, you are just here to troll.

Why do you make these idiot insinuations? Are you trying to insult people, or do you have a serious problem understanding anything beyond your own head? You have made up your mind that SS is the best game ever, that there's nothing wrong with the game, and anyone who make any criticism against it must in one way or another be a flawed person. Both you and JDR13 jumped on me in the other SS thread and now you keep on insulting me here. I had enough of it and I am done with you. It's just a game damnit.

You really don't seem to have the patience to learn the intricacies of the game, sorry. As I said, you don't seem to have the approach that a game like System Shock requires. It requires that you invest in the game, and that you're careful when exploring. Your comments about dying in each room and that the game is very hard is very supportive of this, because the game really isn't that hard - and if you know what you're doing, it's very possible to go through the game without these difficulties.

Also, it's plain to see that I've repeated what flaws the game DOES have more than once - so there's nothing to indicate that I think it's perfect. But yeah, it's my own personal favorite so it's only natural that I wouldn't see the flaws in the same light as someone who doesn't think it's that good.

There's no need to call me an idiot - but if you must, then I think the troll is you.

 

[JDR13]

JemyM,

I don't see anything in DArtagnan's post that would justify that kind of reply. He simply stated some opinions based on observation, there was nothing "troll"-like about his comments.

It seems like anytime someone makes a statement that you don't agree with, you start crying "victim!"