Teaching kids about God/s: What group are you in and why?

[JemyM]

@JemyM
Please don't take my words to literal.
Please replace "perfect and beautyful" with the more neutral word "complex".
My thesis or should I say believe is (I can't prove it - I think nobody can):
The world I exist in is too complex and too well arranged that I think the world has NOT created/invented itself out of nothing.

This doesn't change what I said. Complex is what you perceive it to be and there is no "world came from nothing".

Examples of beauty:

Euler's identity:

e^(i*π)+1=0

The number 0, the additive identity.

The number 1, the multiplicative identity.

The number π, which is ubiquitous in trigonometry, the geometry of Euclidean space, and analytical mathematics (π = 3.14159265…)

The number e, the base of natural logarithms, which occurs widely in mathematical and scientific analysis (e = 2.718281828…). Both π and e are transcendental numbers.

The number i, the imaginary unit of the complex numbers, a field of numbers that contains the roots of all polynomials (that are not constants), and whose study leads to deeper insights into many areas of algebra and calculus, such as integration in calculus.

Richard Feynman about the complexity of nature (example electromagnetic spectrum)

The Infamous Double Slit Experiment
Mass–energy equivalence

This part of your reasoning have been established already. The problem is your conclusion which is a non-sequitur (=it doesn't follow).

A) I perceive this to be complex.
B) Thus a human-like "intelligence", maker, creator must be behind it.

The fact that you make the conclusion B however is not complex at all (see pareidolia and theory of mind). But do you realize that A+B is much more complex and pose more questions than mere A?

 

[HiddenX]

A single universe like ours with this complexity and life in it is a mathmatical impossibility.

The only other alternative I see is that every second umpteen millions of universes with different physics rules begin to exist and if the rules build a stable system they exist longer, if the rules cannot build a stable system they vanish.

This is even more mind blowing.

A) I perceive this to be complex.

My examples are objectively complex by human standards.

B) Thus a human-like "intelligence", maker, creator must be behind it.

-> I never said human like.

 

[HiddenX]

To make it easy:

In an abstract universe exists one complex thing - let's say a Mercedes Benz and all elements necessary for it.

What is easier to accept:

a) The Mercedez Benz is created by the evolution of nature in this special universe by chance

or

b) there's an abstract Mercedes Benz engineer, who has a plan of the Mercedes Benz and created that special universe where Mercedes Benz can exist.

 

[hishadow]

The creator of the Mercedez Benz and the Mercedez Benz share the same universe and building blocks, can touch eachother, and even talk to eachother if the Benz could talk. God on the other hand cannot be observed (some might argue contrary) from this universe.

 

[Jhari]

Yes and No!! Religion is Important if you want to understand what is currently happening in large parts of the world. It's all relative and therefore impossible to rank where anything should fit in a list of what is most important.

History, Political Science, Social Sciences... all studies of behavior require at least a working knowledge of religion.

On a more personal level, if you want to understand arguments and world views you might encounter in serious conversations, you must have a god understanding of the individual's religious views.

So, even if you think it's all bunk, the fact that a great many actually believe is enough to try to understand it yourself, IMO.

 

[Jhari]

Something else to consider, given the direction of the thread:

I don't equate religion with Church. The Church (whichever one cares to use) is designed to promote an interfacing dogma between the believe3r and the spiritual entity. They often do this by apologetics...the use of logic to "prove" the existance of the spiritual being.

Those who believe have, by definition, made a leap of faith, and are beyond the powers of logic. I always thought that people who feel compelled to protect their god with logic are not strong in their belief.

As a technical person, I have a hard time really believing, but the Christian-LITE in me separates the logic from the spirituality. That is, I can pursue scientific study of the origins of life, for example, without impairing my spirituality. So, it really doesn't make any difference how the world is created. God (or gods, etc) exist because there is a need in humans to explain the unexplainable, and a desire to feel protected in times of uncertainty, and to feel that there is some purpose in our lives.

One could argue that spirituality is a function of evolution designed to tamp down runaway emotions, like control rods in a nuclear reactor.

 

[Damian Mahadevan]

Well, the first response in the poll is flawed. You can't prove there is a God. You can have faith there is a God (and God himself could of course prove it to you should He so choose), but no mortal can prove the existence of God.

Good point.

 

[Damian Mahadevan]

The creator of the Mercedez Benz and the Mercedez Benz share the same universe and building blocks, can touch eachother, and even talk to eachother if the Benz could talk. God on the other hand cannot be observed (some might argue contrary) from this universe.

While God cant be directly observed, it is possible that you can see gods influence in someones life, from character changes to external changes. Character changes can be awesome like the change in that of a murderer for example it is an internal thing and it is believed to be in ones control in terms of change so it cant be used to "prove" the existence of God.

External changes are changes that is outside ones control, there are some people that seem to have Gods favour in their life, once or twice can be shrugged off as chance but what happens when it happens everytime something bad befalls a person. That can sway people in the probability that there is God.

I held this belief for years, not expecting it to ever change. But then I met someone who caused me to become interested in the possibility of God. She was caring, kind, and very intelligent. It bothered that someone that intelligent could believe in God.

She talked about God like he was her dearest friend who deeply loved her. I knew her life well. Any concern she would take to God, as if trusting him to work out a way or care for her in some way. She would tell me, quite candidly, that she was merely praying that God would act upon her concerns. Every week I saw what seemed to be answers to her prayers. For more than a year. I watched her life through a myriad of circumstances. She was convinced that God did exist.

http://www.everystudent.com/wires/atheist.html

 

[JemyM]

To make it easy:

In an abstract universe exists one complex thing - let's say a Mercedes Benz and all elements necessary for it.

What is easier to accept:

a) The Mercedez Benz is created by the evolution of nature in this special universe by chance

or

b) there's an abstract Mercedes Benz engineer, who has a plan of the Mercedes Benz and created that special universe where Mercedes Benz can exist.

It was easy when you said it the first time, I know the argument and it's many variants. Hoyle's Fallacy is probably the most well known variant.

Pretty much all problems I already mentioned still exist though, most importantly that evolution is still not "chance".


Let me add a bit for you that follow from your reasoning so far...

there's an abstract Mercedes Benz engineer, who has a plan of the Mercedes Benz and created that special universe where Mercedes Benz can exist, and there is a God (who must be more complex than the engineer), who came out of nothing by chance, who created that engineer. Or, there is a God who created that God, who came out of nothing by chance and must be even more complex than the complexity of the God who created the engineer. Or, that God as well was created by a God, who came out of nothing....

 

[JemyM]

External changes are changes that is outside ones control, there are some people that seem to have Gods favour in their life, once or twice can be shrugged off as chance but what happens when it happens everytime something bad befalls a person. That can sway people in the probability that there is God.

If God is a concept in that individuals culture.

Unusual circumstances happens all the time by mere probability. If we thanks to our culture perceive such circumstances as the result of supernatural forces we are going to see quite alot of it.

 

[Rithrandil]

While God cant be directly observed, it is possible that you can see gods influence in someones life, from character changes to external changes. Character changes can be awesome like the change in that of a murderer for example it is an internal thing and it is believed to be in ones control in terms of change so it cant be used to "prove" the existence of God.

External changes are changes that is outside ones control, there are some people that seem to have Gods favour in their life, once or twice can be shrugged off as chance but what happens when it happens everytime something bad befalls a person. That can sway people in the probability that there is God.



http://www.everystudent.com/wires/atheist.html

It's not reasonable to infer a supernatural cause from personality changes. Someone's psychology, physiology, and outside events are more than sufficient to explain them. Sometimes a murderer will feel remorse and honestly change their lifestyle (just like sometimes a nice, kind person will decide to go on a killing spree).

As for external changes: Everything is chance. In D&D I once rolled character stats of 18, 18, 18, 16, 18, 16. Highly unlikely, but I did it. You're also just taking all the "good" external statistical anomalies and tossing out the old ones. You're faaaar more likely (in the US) to die from falling off a ladder than in a terrorist attack, especially pre-9/11. Did God just hate who died that day? Sometimes people experience a great deal of "good luck" for lack of a better term. Sometimes people experience a great deal of "bad luck". Stats are a bitch.

 

[hishadow]

Last saturday evening while I was out jogging in a local park, there were some 15-20 naked girls running around screaming and doing skinny dipping. Coincidence or divine intervention?

 

[DogInARocket]

Last saturday while I was out jogging in a local park, there were some 15-20 naked girls running around screaming and doing skinny dipping. Coincidence or divine intervention?

That depends on the girls.

 

[Damian Mahadevan]

Last saturday evening while I was out jogging in a local park, there were some 15-20 naked girls running around screaming and doing skinny dipping. Coincidence or divine intervention?

Its chance the first time, if it happens every time you go there then something is up and not is just in your pants.

 

[Damian Mahadevan]

It's not reasonable to infer a supernatural cause from personality changes. Someone's psychology, physiology, and outside events are more than sufficient to explain them. Sometimes a murderer will feel remorse and honestly change their lifestyle (just like sometimes a nice, kind person will decide to go on a killing spree).

As for external changes: Everything is chance. In D&D I once rolled character stats of 18, 18, 18, 16, 18, 16. Highly unlikely, but I did it. You're also just taking all the "good" external statistical anomalies and tossing out the old ones. You're faaaar more likely (in the US) to die from falling off a ladder than in a terrorist attack, especially pre-9/11. Did God just hate who died that day? Sometimes people experience a great deal of "good luck" for lack of a better term. Sometimes people experience a great deal of "bad luck". Stats are a bitch.

How many time did you roll to get that? And how many times did you get that? And no i am not taking the "good" external statistical anomalies. Some people trust in God completely every time something bad happens to them and God delivers them everytime or turn that bad thing into something good. Only so many times that can happen before you think that God is a possibility.

 

[fatBastard()]

Its chance the first time, if it happens every time you go there then something is up and not is just in your pants.

Or perhaps the park is located next to a nudist beach

Some people trust in God completely every time something bad happens to them and God delivers them everytime or turn that bad thing into something good. Only so many times that can happen before you think that God is a possibility.

And once you go down that road, you'll always be able to rationalize that mindset to yourself. I didn't fall off my bike even though I hit a bump in the road, it must have been divine intervention. If I had arrived 5 seconds earlier I might have been hit by that car, it must have been divine intervention. I never get any chicks at parties, it must be God's punishment. etc, etc, etc.

No-one is better at deceiving you than your own mind if you allow it.

 

[HiddenX]

…
Let me add a bit for you that follow from your reasoning so far…

there's an abstract Mercedes Benz engineer, who has a plan of the Mercedes Benz and created that special universe where Mercedes Benz can exist, and there is a God (who must be more complex than the engineer), who came out of nothing by chance, who created that engineer. Or, there is a God who created that God, who came out of nothing by chance and must be even more complex than the complexity of the God who created the engineer. Or, that God as well was created by a God, who came out of nothing….

This is true for turing machines ( computer programs cannot create computer programs with proof of correctness) -> okay.

But you can break the above creating chain if you believe the first engineer is almighty and exist beside space and time.

And then again if someone doesn't agree/like/believe my conclusions - What is your answer to the question "Why is not Nothing ?"

Why are the laws of nature so, that it was possible to create materials more complex than hydrogen, forming galaxies with material clouds, stars and planets and life ?
A slight variation of Newton's gravitational constant and life would never be possible at all.

 

[Damian Mahadevan]

Or perhaps the park is located next to a nudist beach

Which is the kind of thing i was alluding to, it cant be chance if it happens so much.

And once you go down that road, you'll always be able to rationalize that mindset to yourself. I didn't fall off my bike even though I hit a bump in the road, it must have been divine intervention. If I had arrived 5 seconds earlier I might have been hit by that car, it must have been divine intervention. I never get any chicks at parties, it must be God's punishment. etc, etc, etc.

No-one is better at deceiving you than your own mind if you allow it.

I am not talking about stuff like that. I am talking things like about losing control of your car for no apparent reason, spinning into the other side of the road and getting out without a scratch after the crash. Things like that happening once is dumb luck, happening all the time is something else.

 

[JemyM]

External changes are changes that is outside ones control, there are some people that seem to have Gods favour in their life, once or twice can be shrugged off as chance but what happens when it happens everytime something bad befalls a person. That can sway people in the probability that there is God.

If God is a concept in that individuals culture.

Unusual circumstances happens all the time by mere probability. If we thanks to our culture perceive such circumstances as the result of supernatural forces we are going to see quite alot of it.

Let's say you live in a city with 100.000 people. Every 3 years a 1-in-a-billion event will happen to one of them and everyone in town will probably hear about it. Every 30 year old have heard about 10 such events.

 

[Damian Mahadevan]

If God is a concept in that individuals culture.

Unusual circumstances happens all the time by mere probability. If we thanks to our culture perceive such circumstances as the result of supernatural forces we are going to see quite alot of it.

Let's say you live in a city with 100.000 people. Every 3 years a 1-in-a-billion event will happen to one of them and everyone in town will probably hear about it. Every 30 year old have heard about 10 such events.

So what if the 1 in a billion event strikes the same person 10 times in those 30 years? You wouldnt think that it was rigged?