War in Gaza

[Corwin]

Mate, I generally agree with you, but your point (b) is an oxymoron. Israel is the ONLY western style democratic country in the middle east and Muslim controlled countries really want no part of democracy; it doesn't line up with Islam. It might interest you to know that many, many Arabs (most of whom claim to be Muslim) actually prefer to live under Israeli rule and government.

 

[HiddenX]

20 years is a long time and there are a lot of "normal" Muslims out there that want peace, too. In its core the Muslim religion is as peaceful as any other. The current problem in the Arabian world: Religion is misused to get or stay in power.
Religion and political power should be separated. I know that Europe needed several hundred years to learn this.

 

[Corwin]

Actually, at its core, the Muslim religion isn't peaceful. One of its central tenets is to make the entire world Muslim by any and all means whatsoever. That's the way they believe you get world peace, despite the fact that Muslims kill each other (Sunni vs Shiite for example) probably more than Catholics and Protestants did. Sadly the history of the world is littered with wars most of which were done in the name of one or more religions!! Often, the religion was little more than a thinly veiled excuse to conquer and oppress other nations. Nothing much has changed!!!!

 

[HiddenX]

In the last 45 years of my life none of my Muslim neighbors tried to convert me to Islam - I remember only some Jehovah's Witnesses that tried

What I can observe in Germany that religious traditions and rules
a) are decreasing in most Christian communities
b) are increasing in many traditional Muslim communities

Exceptions confirm the rule. Many modern Germans don't care much about religions at all.

 

[ManWhoJaped]

Hamas is not really a palestinian organization, if you don't understand this and if you think of it like a 'war' between Gaza and Israel then it is impossible to make any sense of it at all. Hamas also has death to all jews right in the charter. It's an outside-funded terror group.

Just like in original war, the combatants were not mainly palestinian. Even those who were, mainly came to Gaza from surrounding arab countries to get work that became possible only because Israel was founded.

There's been thousands, maybe tens of thousands of rockets fired. There's been hundreds pouring in through tunnels and hundreds of tunnels collapsed. Tunnels which were built by palestinian child slaves, hundreds of which died in the process. More people die in 3 days in syria than have died in this entire conflict. Ten times or more children have died from being used as slave labor as have died in this Israeli 'attack'. If you look at the casual stats there's just a few females of each group - in the elderly and young they are split between male and female, but for men of fighting age there are thousands of additional deaths. This means that almost all the casualties are actual combatants. With every war there's this much collateral action but it's ridiculous that Israel is expected not to go after Hamas when Hamas attacks them almost daily.

There's simply no option but to fight. There's no way that gaza region can ever be secure unless Israel patrols its borders to keep out foreign influece or else takes it over.

The 'occupied' areas were taken after being attacked in a major war. In reality they should have taken the whole area under control but in those days terrorism was not a common tactic. Now it's endemic.

If they give in then basically they would have no way to protect the borders because of the way the older borders were. Then terrorists could have free reign to come from anywhere in the world to assault them, and they would. If they allowed all of them into Israel then it would be completely flooded with arab migrants. They would vote out the government and quickly set up an Iran-friendly government and jews (like christians in arab countries) would become a heavily oppressed minority where abduction and marriage of their women by muslims would be commonplace, people would be murdered at weddings by poisoned wine, and all the things that happen on a daily basis in the area but never get mentioned by most news sources.

The fact this gets such a hatchet job in the media shows that there is a huge 'demographic shift' in europe and USA. It's not really an anglo/european world any more and that is the only reason that crazy terror groups get glorified in the media just because they are brown. This is like the Trayvon Martin case except on a national level. White people and jews dey be da evil, we gonna kill dem all real good. Meanwhile in zimbabwe it's now illegal for white people to own land even though they actually came to the area first and zulus migrated there later. Same sort of law is being pushed in South Africa, where tens of thousands have been killed on their farms already.

 

[lostforever]

As far as I am aware in UK, you can use force to defend yourself however you cannot use "excessive" force even to defend yourself.

The impression I get right now is that Israel is using "excessive" force and this makes me uncomfortable...

 

[ManWhoJaped]

Actually, at its core, the Muslim religion isn't peaceful. One of its central tenets is to make the entire world Muslim by any and all means whatsoever. That's the way they believe you get world peace, despite the fact that Muslims kill each other (Sunni vs Shiite for example) probably more than Catholics and Protestants did. Sadly the history of the world is littered with wars most of which were done in the name of one or more religions!! Often, the religion was little more than a thinly veiled excuse to conquer and oppress other nations. Nothing much has changed!!!!

Exactly, Muslim religion is a declaration of war much like communism. In reality most muslims have been force-converted and are only hallf-assed about it, especially europeans in balkans, but that's what the 'theology' calls for.

There's really no spirituality to Islam, it's 100% about the earthly world. As such I can't even think of it as a religion in the first place. David Koresh didn't have a religion, he just made everyone do as he says or he killed them - that's how it is with Islam as well.

The rest is just propaganda and fantasy, viewing things through european eyes or in some cases euro organizations promoting it because it grows their power base. All the NGOs and activist groups are founded by billionaires and are there to promote the growth of their power and wealth, they have no other purpose. Anything they can do to promote disenfranchising the natives, they'll do. That's why christianity is under attack, and now jews have gone from the outsider to the establishment so are being attacked by leftists as well.

 

[lostforever]

Actually, at its core, the Muslim religion isn't peaceful. One of its central tenets is to make the entire world Muslim by any and all means whatsoever. That's the way they believe you get world peace, despite the fact that Muslims kill each other (Sunni vs Shiite for example) probably more than Catholics and Protestants did. Sadly the history of the world is littered with wars most of which were done in the name of one or more religions!! Often, the religion was little more than a thinly veiled excuse to conquer and oppress other nations. Nothing much has changed!!!!

Someone said the same thing to me the other day but instead of Muslim they had Christian in that sentence...

 

[HiddenX]

There's simply no option but to fight. There's no way that gaza region can ever be secure unless Israel patrols its borders to keep out foreign influece or else takes it over.

By this logic Hamas has already won. They are instrumentalizing the Palestine people for their cause. Aggression by Israel will only firm up their leadership. If I remember right Hamas was originally founded by the Egypt Muslim brotherhood.
Again IMO there's no alternative for a long term international peace plan and two democratic Palestine states.
Continue fighting and the whole area will end in chaos.

 

[greywolf00]

Demanding that Hamas be disbanded will simply never work. The only way to defeat Hamas is to take away their support, and the only way to do that is get the people on your side. You don't do that by bombing them into oblivion, bulldozing houses or allowing illegal settlements.

While this is true it's not going to happen and Hamas is a bit different than the IRA. The distance Islamic extremists are willing to go is quite unique (mainly their willingness to sacrifice supporters and their ability to maintain support despite this). Conditions in Gaza are impacted by Israel's blockades which they won't lift (and shouldn't) as Hamas will eagerly look to leverage it for terrorist attacks. On the other side of the coin Hamas is very intelligently capitalizing and the created conditions by using social programs to win support of people in Gaza to ensure they keep control in order to conduct violence against Israel. It's basically a catch 22 for Israel.

 

[ManWhoJaped]

By this logic Hamas has already won. They are instrumentalizing the Palestine people for their cause. Aggression by Israel will only firm up their leadership. If I remember right Hamas was originally founded by the Egypt Muslim brotherhood.
Again IMO there's no alternative for a long term international peace plan and two democratic Palestine states.
Continue fighting and the whole area will end in chaos.

Hamas is a proxy group, not a nation. There is no war as such, there are only actions to defend yourself. The international opinion means squat in the end. There can't be any accord with the muslim world because it's controlled by khomeini on one side and the saudi royalty on the other, so there is absolutely no reason to even try.

There is no 'winning' but that doesn't mean you have to lose either. The way to ensure losing is to give in to demands or sit back and let them do whatever they want to you. But if you take the fight to them you can contain it, much like you can contain crime. There is always more crime but giving into it and being lax means it skyrockets quickly.

 

[ManWhoJaped]

While this is true it's not going to happen and Hamas is a bit different than the IRA.

The main difference is they are not really palestinian in the first place.

It's basically a catch 22 for Israel.

Not really, all they need is US support and they can't really lose. They won't lose that unless USA becomes a muslim state which won't ever happen.

Muslims can cry about it in the press all they want and it will change nothing. Only scary part is how much euros buy into this. USA won't be muslim except maybe in a thousand years, but europe is headed there at an alarming rate, and anyone who publicly goes against them gets killed off.

 

[greywolf00]

Hamas is a Palestinian militant movement and the second largest political party in Palestine. The fact that they're also a terrorist organization doesn't change that.

I meant catch 22 in regards to taking away Hamas' support in Gaza. Israel isn't going anywhere.

 

[ManWhoJaped]

Hamas is a Palestinian militant movement and the second largest political party in Palestine. The fact that they're also a terrorist organization doesn't change that.

I meant catch 22 in regards to taking away Hamas' support in Gaza. Israel isn't going anywhere.

Most of the people in palestine aren't palestinian. Most of the people fighting for Hamas are just like ISIS, not rebels but 'insurgents' who just go to every country they can and wage jihad. Locals who don't go along with them, are killed. People who refuse to be human shields, are killed. It's an invasion force that's taken over palestine not a native group of freedom fighters.

 

[HiddenX]

The international opinion means squat in the end. There can't be any accord with the muslim world because it's controlled by khomeini on one side and the saudi royalty on the other, so there is absolutely no reason to even try.

I disagree, never before in history the Muslim world was split in so many different subgroups, some of them even fight each other.
Demonizing a large group of people, because small subgroups are radical gains nothing. And peace should always be the long term goal, even if it is looking like a dream on short term.

 

[ManWhoJaped]

I disagree, never before in history the Muslim world was split in so many different subgroups, some of them even fight each other.

You have a very poor grasp of history if you think that, but then that is obvious from the thread. Shiite vs sunni has always been boiling since the death of mohammed, what's changed is now they don't fight openly as before but throough terror groups.

The jihad groups come from saudis or iran. They go to any country they can and they radicalize the local muslims and kill any who don't go along. Most of this 'infighting' is radicalizing the locals and taking over. Just like what happened with hamas and palestine. Just like lebanon which was mostly christian until jihaders came. Just like syria and sudan etc. etc.

STARTING TO SEE THE PATTERN HERE?

Demonizing a large group of people, because small subgroups are radical gains nothing. And peace should always be the long term goal, even if it is looking like a dream on short term.

The religion itself is what's the problem, I already said that, so don't try to twist my words to suit your agenda. The nonradical muslims get it just as bad by these groups which are funded by oil money which is the main difference between now and the past. So really it is saudi-iran taking over all the countries around them and forcing the population to obey them absolutely under religions pretexts.

 

[ManWhoJaped]

This process is also what happened to Iran. Shiites are some tiny minority, that come from outside Iran. They let secular revolutionaries get killed off fighting the sha, then they took over when it was done, and sent all the dissenters off to die in the iran-iraq war.

So hopefully at some point common people will realize this is what's going on and why it has to be stopped. You either stop it or eventually it stops you.

Most of the people anti-israel are just anti-semites. They could care less about other conflicts raging on which are much worse. The rest are just people who have been conned into believing this crap by arabs and leftists with tons of money to spend on news coverage for something that is barely a ding on the international scale of things compared to the rest of the world.

 

[Corwin]

Someone said the same thing to me the other day but instead of Muslim they had Christian in that sentence…

At its core is the commandment thou shall not kill!! Yes, Christians would like everyone to be a Christian, but you don't see them committing the attrocities the Muslims do. Don't quote me 'in the name of', that's just BS for any religion, but when did a Christian fly a plane into a skyscraper?!! Not all Christians are angels, and not all Muslims are terrorists, but I do know which group is more peaceful in our present world!!

 

[greywolf00]

I'd love to see updated data supporting the idea that Palestinians are no longer the majority ethnic group of Gaza as that would mark a remarkable shift from 2004 where they accounted for 49% of the population. I'm not saying it's false, it's just not data I've seen.

As for the "Insurgent" recruiting, that's a longstanding and common theme in Islamic extremist organizations due to the religion. It's impossible to determine how many members of Hamas in Gaza are from other countries so they will continue to be classified as a Palestinian Terrorist Organization.

 

[Corwin]

This may shock you, but I've checked it out, less than 100 years ago (actually I think not much more than 50 years ago) the majority of Israelis were called Palestinians. Historically, there is NO such nation or people as Palestinians, EXCEPT for the Jews!!