You saying you don't believe in habits?
You don't seem to understand what I'm saying. Read this, especially point three.
Übereil
Welfare reform in Michigan
- Thread starter dteowner
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You saying you don't believe in habits?
You don't seem to understand what I'm saying. Read this, especially point three.
Übereil
What makes you think I'm trying to diminish Ubereil's argument? I'm simply stating facts.
Of course I realize that the longer someone goes unemployed the harder it's going to be for them to get hired somewhere. That's common sense. However, I think in a lot of these cases, these people have no one to blame but themselves. They wait too long before really trying to get a job,
Thrasher
Wheeee!
Well I know one person in particular that worked like a dog to get a new job, used various online and traditional services (that are expensive) and personal connections, but the environment was so poor for international development that nothing came of it. When the economy recovers, that career path may be shut because of the long period not working in that field…
dteowner
Shoegazer
I don't believe in habits that cannot be broken, given genuine desire and personal responsibility. Thus, a 15-year "habit" is indicative of those factors being sorely lacking, rather than some failure of the system due to manufactured psychological issues.
NO ONE might be going too far. There will always be SOME.
You can see for yourself though. Go down there and just look at the MAJORITY of people stuck in that system and you will see.
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You people know very little about welfare, it seems. Since the reforms in the 90's, the only people on welfare are working poor or people who are incapable of working. It's probably safe to say that the great majority of folks getting food stamps ARE working.
Further, there seems to be some idea here that these folks are somehow getting huge amounts of money. When I was in the military, i qualified for food stamps, and i needed it for my kids. When I left the military, was on welfare ofr about 4 months while I was unemployed. The massive take? $300 in food stamps, and $304 a month in cash, for a family of 4.
I dare any of you to live on that and not want more.
Further, there seems to be some idea here that these folks are somehow getting huge amounts of money. When I was in the military, i qualified for food stamps, and i needed it for my kids. When I left the military, was on welfare ofr about 4 months while I was unemployed. The massive take? $300 in food stamps, and $304 a month in cash, for a family of 4.
I dare any of you to live on that and not want more.
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dteowner
Shoegazer
This is the pivotal key, right here. I've got no desire to take away a basic social safety net. You did what you had to do and set your mind to improving your situation. That's exactly how it *should* work. 15 years on the dole isn't a failure of the system, but a failure of the individual. That's a person that, for whatever reason, didn't want more, and all the enabling psychology in the world shouldn't excuse that fundamental lack of drive.
Christ, you are ignorant of what it means to be poor. You think all of this is somehow lack of desire? Poverty wears one down, and it takes massive effort just to cope with life, much less build hope. It's a downward spiral that requires the same skills to overcome as it does to avoid the situation in the first place. Sure, there are success stories, but the odds are against it, as statistics show. Children of poor parents are likely to be poor, and the poor are likely to remain poor.
And the welfare system never offers real help, because there isn't enough money for that, and there aren't enough volunteers to mentor the kids, or to sit down with the adults and figure out what the real problems might be, and how to best tackle them.
And there's this nasty 'ME" generation running around now who think that they are entitled to avoid social responsibilities, who, like you, come up with all kinds of rationalizations to wave away helping anyone with anything.
Well, you could see for yourself. You could volunteer, you could spend some time, as I do, working in my church's assistance program and food bank. You could show some COMPASSION, or failing any of that,because, hey, it takes time, money and empathy, you could at least ponder about how disastrous you life could become if today, you found yourself unable to work for the rest of your life.
If this applies to you, then check yourself. If it doesn't, then why do you post the things you do?
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Indeed, there's this nasty "ME" generation that is actually deluded into thinking the world owes them something, and that the world cares jack shit about them and their problems. Our society owes people a chance to make their own way, and a soft landing for people that try but fail (allowing them to pick up the pieces and try again). The world could take everything away from me tomorrow, and I promise you that nobody here would lose a second of sleep. And that's not some whiny snivelling—y'all have your own problems to deal with and I wouldn't be so selfish and arrogant as to expect that my problems would be more important to you than your own, unlike your overly-entitled "ME" generation. If you're not scratching and clawing to do the best for yourself and your family, you're not trying. I don't have time for people that don't try to help themselves (which does not equal all people on welfare, so let's not even try that nonsense).
I think you two are beginning to argue at cross purposes. There REALLY are people who don't want to work and who expect the gov't to support them. We have people here, who are actually BETTER off with welfare (and the extra perks it offers) than they would be working a full time job. IMO, that is wrong. I agree with Dte that ANYONE (barring a physical or mental handicap which makes working impossible) who is unemployed for 15 YEARS doesn't want to work. When I was a student, I took any job I could find to earn some money. Most work was horrible, dirty, laboring type jobs, but I didn't care. I was determined to work when I could.
Captain Buzzkill
Sentinel
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I think the issue that we're peeking at, but never really discussing, is the responsibility of the individual to society, compared with the responsibility of society to the individual. I see where both Jhari and dte are coming from, but when you drag both arguments to the middle ground, there has to be effort from both sides. Unfortunately, especially in US culture, there is an incredible amount of misinformation and prejudice when it comes to the plight of the poor, as well as class warfare and mistrust from both sides of the political spectrum when it comes to dealing with it. The only way to understand poverty is to live it, or somehow immerse yourself in it, so you understand the depression, alienation, and total hopelessness that accompanies it. I think that the problem for most is that we see that world through our own experiences, and it doesn't jive with the environment and society that we grew up in. Corwin, you touched on it briefly in your post stating that you took whatever menial work you could when you were a student - being a student gives you a particular place in the social hierarchy. It provided you with a network of individuals and a goal that you could rely and focus on, even though you were working crap jobs. Flip that situation and imagine that you're a 20 year old with a kid, no high school diploma, family members or friends that are in prison or dead, surrounded by a culture of drugs, crime, and violence that prevents businesses from investing in the local economy (or that you live in an area of the country that isn't deemed important enough for businesses to set up shop). You never finished your high school diploma because you got kicked out of school for selling drugs - the only lucrative "work" that you could get in such an environment, and so to top it off, you've got a misdemeanor drug charge (at best) on your record. Put yourself behind that eight ball, and see how easy it is to pick yourself up by the bootstraps.
As far as dte's position on the subject, I understand your frustration. It's gotta be infuriating to see someone working the system and taking unfair advantage of it, especially when it's YOUR money that they're taking. So you feel a certain degree of vindication and justification in cutting some of those benefits, because the individual that you see taints your perception of the subset of society as a whole. However, we need to keep in perspective that gaming the system isn't necessarily the norm, nor is it only occurring among the poor. We are opportunists by nature, so when the system is being abused, it may be true that there is an individual failing, but there can also be societal reasons for this abuse, as well. As Jhari pointed out, the meager checks and food stamps come, but where are the opportunities? Where are the mentors for kids, and the counselors and educators for adults? Do we simply believe that if we give someone money that they are going to suddenly have goals and aspirations? If your life has been one big epic fail since the day you were born, how is a handout that you can barely live on going to motivate you to make something of yourself? Again, because we see the situation through OUR prism of experience, what we see is lack of motivation, laziness, and apathy, when the apathy is just as much at our end. We give the barest minimum of effort, and expect those that receive our charity to make up the difference, when they are completely lacking in the tools and social structure to make that possible.
As far as dte's position on the subject, I understand your frustration. It's gotta be infuriating to see someone working the system and taking unfair advantage of it, especially when it's YOUR money that they're taking. So you feel a certain degree of vindication and justification in cutting some of those benefits, because the individual that you see taints your perception of the subset of society as a whole. However, we need to keep in perspective that gaming the system isn't necessarily the norm, nor is it only occurring among the poor. We are opportunists by nature, so when the system is being abused, it may be true that there is an individual failing, but there can also be societal reasons for this abuse, as well. As Jhari pointed out, the meager checks and food stamps come, but where are the opportunities? Where are the mentors for kids, and the counselors and educators for adults? Do we simply believe that if we give someone money that they are going to suddenly have goals and aspirations? If your life has been one big epic fail since the day you were born, how is a handout that you can barely live on going to motivate you to make something of yourself? Again, because we see the situation through OUR prism of experience, what we see is lack of motivation, laziness, and apathy, when the apathy is just as much at our end. We give the barest minimum of effort, and expect those that receive our charity to make up the difference, when they are completely lacking in the tools and social structure to make that possible.
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GothicGothicness
SasqWatch
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There is a difference between, what is fair and right, and what is needed of a society. I agree in principle that none should get more from well fare compared to if they were working.
If you remove well fare for these people, I don't think they'd be able to get a job anyway. Which would leave them few options, there are lots of criminal ways to earn money, you could also try begging in the street. Probably they would resort to some of these measures, or perhaps in desperation take a job that pays well below the minimum wage set by US Law ( which is also criminal ).
To think that everyone could get a job... well it used to be like that when you were young Corwin, but these days simple dirty jobs are not as common anymore.
If you remove well fare for these people, I don't think they'd be able to get a job anyway. Which would leave them few options, there are lots of criminal ways to earn money, you could also try begging in the street. Probably they would resort to some of these measures, or perhaps in desperation take a job that pays well below the minimum wage set by US Law ( which is also criminal ).
To think that everyone could get a job... well it used to be like that when you were young Corwin, but these days simple dirty jobs are not as common anymore.
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Removing welfare from people to firce them to go looking for a jib - this is the Menschenbild ("human image" ? - the philosophy standing behind it) of the German Hartz IV laws.
But in the minds of a lot of people, Hartz IV went into the other side of the extreme : Keeping people so poor they aren't even able to have a *normal* standard of living (like this example of a "job center" indirectly claiming the money a grandmother had given to her grand-children as birthday- and christmas presents).
This extreme, which is seemingly kind of crystallizing here - isn't good as well, because it makes the people feel helpless. And helpless people, who believe they have no chance whatsoever ("you don't have a chance - so take it !") begin to ... not only feel helpless, but I fear they rather begin to grow a feeling of expectations ("gov't owes us something") because they grow into the opinion that they are actively hindered of developing a *normal* live - a live out growing out from the "realms of poorness".
People who are like this exist as well - not everyone's a maggot.
Here in Germany we also have a second problem, which makes things even worse : According to the PISA studies, there is NO OTHER countey like German where the success of education and a career is depending from the social class !
This is for real. The higher the social class, the better the visited schools are.
And the opposite is truie as well : The lower the social class, the less good the visited schools are (as a tendency).
and this is SUCH a wate of patential talent ! To hinder lower social classes of visiting higher + more expensive schools !
A projection of this development into the future is easy : There will be 2 classers : One highly edcated and relatively rich class - and a second class which i call "workers" (although this education problem also hits the middle class as well, although to a smaller degree), who are "kept" in poorness.
Scientists of the social sciences already say tht poorness is already kind of "inherited" - because no-one helps them to get better education !
And why aren't they able to have better education ? Because they have no time ! - It's simply because they have to work for as much money as they can get - which is very, very, very few in the low-end job segment.
You simply need more tim for working to get the same money together for a *normal* living in lowe social classes than in higher social classes.
And the result is that simply 8i]there is no time[/i] for good and better education !
An in the U.S. , where in families both mother and father have to work almost full time t th same time to get the same amount of money together for a *nomal* living standard that a rich person earns in - cynically said - 5 minutes - there, the families simply won't have any time for good education as well !
All they can do it desparately trying to keep up a "normal" living standard.
And the lower social classes ... Well, they develop others means of getting money. Initially to get "out of the ghetto". And thats imho how "Gangstas" evolved.
Gangstas, who are plundering shops during riots which might have been started by others.
And as a political side-note : Here in Germany, these recent developments re both the products of conservative and "left"-oriented parties as well.
Hartz IV has been the product of a committee/commission started by the "left" SPD party, and developed by the then manager of the German car company Volkswagen" at the top.
In its essence, it's a concept, a Menschenbild that is influenced by economics. Humans are no more seen as humans, but as a cost-bringer and a profit-bringer.
And that's - thought to the bitter end - what the Nazis did as well. Put humans into 2 categories : producers of profits and bringers of costs.
And the result was the so-called "life-unworthy life", which resulted in the Nazi Euthanasia.
Therefore, my fear is, that this is a fault in the system. To divide humans into 2 groups : Those who can produce and those who can't.
All humanity is gone, then, at one point.
But in the minds of a lot of people, Hartz IV went into the other side of the extreme : Keeping people so poor they aren't even able to have a *normal* standard of living (like this example of a "job center" indirectly claiming the money a grandmother had given to her grand-children as birthday- and christmas presents).
This extreme, which is seemingly kind of crystallizing here - isn't good as well, because it makes the people feel helpless. And helpless people, who believe they have no chance whatsoever ("you don't have a chance - so take it !") begin to ... not only feel helpless, but I fear they rather begin to grow a feeling of expectations ("gov't owes us something") because they grow into the opinion that they are actively hindered of developing a *normal* live - a live out growing out from the "realms of poorness".
People who are like this exist as well - not everyone's a maggot.
Here in Germany we also have a second problem, which makes things even worse : According to the PISA studies, there is NO OTHER countey like German where the success of education and a career is depending from the social class !
This is for real. The higher the social class, the better the visited schools are.
And the opposite is truie as well : The lower the social class, the less good the visited schools are (as a tendency).
and this is SUCH a wate of patential talent ! To hinder lower social classes of visiting higher + more expensive schools !
A projection of this development into the future is easy : There will be 2 classers : One highly edcated and relatively rich class - and a second class which i call "workers" (although this education problem also hits the middle class as well, although to a smaller degree), who are "kept" in poorness.
Scientists of the social sciences already say tht poorness is already kind of "inherited" - because no-one helps them to get better education !
And why aren't they able to have better education ? Because they have no time ! - It's simply because they have to work for as much money as they can get - which is very, very, very few in the low-end job segment.
You simply need more tim for working to get the same money together for a *normal* living in lowe social classes than in higher social classes.
And the result is that simply 8i]there is no time[/i] for good and better education !
An in the U.S. , where in families both mother and father have to work almost full time t th same time to get the same amount of money together for a *nomal* living standard that a rich person earns in - cynically said - 5 minutes - there, the families simply won't have any time for good education as well !
All they can do it desparately trying to keep up a "normal" living standard.
And the lower social classes ... Well, they develop others means of getting money. Initially to get "out of the ghetto". And thats imho how "Gangstas" evolved.
Gangstas, who are plundering shops during riots which might have been started by others.
And as a political side-note : Here in Germany, these recent developments re both the products of conservative and "left"-oriented parties as well.
Hartz IV has been the product of a committee/commission started by the "left" SPD party, and developed by the then manager of the German car company Volkswagen" at the top.
In its essence, it's a concept, a Menschenbild that is influenced by economics. Humans are no more seen as humans, but as a cost-bringer and a profit-bringer.
And that's - thought to the bitter end - what the Nazis did as well. Put humans into 2 categories : producers of profits and bringers of costs.
And the result was the so-called "life-unworthy life", which resulted in the Nazi Euthanasia.
Therefore, my fear is, that this is a fault in the system. To divide humans into 2 groups : Those who can produce and those who can't.
All humanity is gone, then, at one point.
When did I ever say they cannot be broken? Breaking them is hard, especially if you're trying to do it all on your own, but not impossible. As with all difficult things, not everyone succeeds at it, though.
Also, genuine desire tends not to be the problem. I've pointed it out, Jhari's pointed it out, Captain Buzzkill's pointed it out (I think…): being on wellfare sucks. You have almost no money and not being able to make a living for yourself wears you down mentally (really). I've watched my brother be unemployed for six years and the entire time he was utterly miserable. I flat out can't see why anyone would want to live like that. It's like saying a person with cancer wouldn't get rid of it if he could.
(Well, there's pepole for everything but those who enjoy being on wellfare is going to be a fraction of a minority.)
So, the breaking tends to fall on the "personal responsibility" bit. Even though they want to, they don't manage to take "personal responsibility" and get themself out of it. In other words they don't seem to be able to get out of it themselves even though they want to (I don't like "personal responsibility" as a term since it's value loaded. I try to* put forward my point in as neutral language as possible, thus letting my points speak for themself). I've tried to explain why but you haven't been listening. As I, and now also Captain Buzzkill, has pointed out this is because you expect them to deliver what pepole with your mindset and your skillset can be expected to deliver. I find this to be as unfair as expecting a legless man to be able to make a living as a professional driver. I mean, they want to get out of it, so if they knew how to (they knew what to do and they think it possible) why wouldn't they? Answer me that, because I just don't understand it.
As for the difficulties of being poor, here's a great article on the subject. Bluntly written, yet effective.
Übereil, who thinks both Jhari and Captain Buzzkill has made good points and who worries this post hasn't really added anything to what they've said
* Not saying I succeed at it, mind.