Why: Planescape Torment, Balders Gate 2, Icewind Dale, Neverwinter Nights

[MinorityReport]

The demise of Black Isle information

yes, I agree, that era of decision making was a heated one, and one that is indeed in the past and involved lots of spilled milk. I thank you for including it in the thread, I was going to mention all that, but I wanted to keep the OP as narrow in it's ambition as possible while at the same time trying to fully explain the strangeness of the situation.

Yes, some bad decisions were made way back when. But that was a long, long, long time ago. Bioware could probably get away with making any old crap - and they often do - and yet they are afraid people wont buy-up an attempted masterpiece? That a possible loss of a million prevents them from silencing all the intellectual critics?

I feel sure that if someone at Bioware decided they wanted to make something 'different' then ways and means could be found to do it without rocking the main vessel of production, even if it was via a sub-division with it's own separate (lower) budget and objective, such as a 'bioware classic' department or some such where the objective was to simply remake old games with new technology, or if copywrite is an issue, re-imagine old games with new technology. Just one game every 2 years from this kind of brand wouldn't endanger any 'bottom line'.

Basically, my main response to your excellent post would be, why don't bioware stop crying over spilled milk if the fans can? Basing decisions in 2014 on decisions that happened over 10 years ago sounds like a very weak excuse to the accusation of 'lack of variety'.

 

[SpoonFULL]

The best AD&D game in the last years was Knights of the Chalice.

Sorry for diverging, but why not put their games on GoG? Even Spiderweb games are now on GoG and Steam!

 

[HiddenX]

Sorry for diverging, but why not put their games on GoG? Even Spiderweb games are now on GoG and Steam!

http://www.heroicfantasygames.com/Forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=415

Bluesalamander (Author of KotC):

... However, I'm not interested in Steam for the time being.

 

[DArtagnan]

You're kidding yourself if you think you're replaying these games over and over, because they're what you really want.

If they released 10 Torments in the next few years - you'd be sick of them very soon.

It's about playing what you're familiar with - because you know exactly what you'll get - and you don't have to challenge yourself with new concepts or adjust to new ways of doing things.

Sure, these games were good - but if they were released today with modern visuals - they wouldn't be considered half as good.

Beyond that, we have the intangible force of nostalgia, which can work crazy tricks on both your mind and memory.

But, by all means, keep replaying these games over and over, if that's what you really prefer.

 

[MinorityReport]

You're kidding yourself if you think you're replaying these games over and over, because they're what you really want.

If they released 10 Torments in the next few years - you'd be sick of them very soon.

It's about playing what you're familiar with - because you know exactly what you'll get - and you don't have to challenge yourself with new concepts or adjust to new ways of doing things.

Sure, these games were good - but if they were released today with modern visuals - they wouldn't be considered half as good.

Beyond that, we have the intangible force of nostalgia, which can work crazy tricks on both your mind and memory.

But, by all means, keep replaying these games over and over, if that's what you really prefer.

What an odd post!

I can assure you people only re-play games if they offer what the person wants - that's, like, stating the obvious, I have no idea why someone replaying a game is 'kidding themselves'.

Why does someone inquiring about the logic of not producing 'any' PS:T clones somehow translate into your ears as '10 PS:Ts a year'. Isn't there a word for this form of debating over-exaggeration?

No, it's not about playing what you're familiar with. When you replay something then, obviously, you're familiar with it. If it is all about feeding people what they are familiar with, then would that be an argument 'in favor' of new versions of old varieties.

As for people not wanting to challenge themselves with new ways of doing things, even the 4 titles in the thread title all require you to 'do things differently' - practically every game ever made requires you to 'do things differently', hence, I have no idea at all what you're point is.

If these titles were released today they wouldn't be half as good? Oh really, so that's why Fallout New Vegas exists? That's why Balder's Gate EE exists? That's why Dragon Age 3 is being made? What evidence have you got for this stance? Or is it just natural pessimism that's part of or character rather than an actual reality?

Nostalgia? You mean when Ian Jackson made Lord of the Rings it was just an a pointless exercise in nostalgia? You mean 'old stuff' should always stay 'old stuff' and never get remade? Like Fallout or King Kong or… etc

Many people do replay these games. Why is that somehow an argument against making new versions? That's an argument to make new versions is it not? People don't 'only' replay these old games, they do 'find space and motivation' to replay them though. I honestly don't know why you phrase this last sentence from such a claustrophobicly negative perspective. You think replayability is a negative trait in a game? What's your age deadline before replayability becomes 'over and over'?

 

[DArtagnan]

What an odd post!

I can assure you people only re-play games if they offer what the person wants - that's, like, stating the obvious, I have no idea why someone replaying a game is 'kidding themselves'.

I said "really" want. People want new things - whether they know it or not.

Why does someone inquiring about the logic of not producing 'any' PS:T clones somehow translate into your ears as '10 PS:Ts a year'. Isn't there a word for this form of debating over-exaggeration?

No one made that translation, I was making a point so that everyone could understand it. Well, that was my intention.

No, it's not about playing what you're familiar with. When you replay something then, obviously, you're familiar with it. If it is all about feeding people what they are familiar with, then would that be an argument 'in favor' of new versions of old varieties.

You're familiar with and implictly it's something you know you'll enjoy. I'm not saying people replay bad games just because they're familiar with them.

As for people not wanting to challenge themselves with new ways of doing things, even the 4 titles in the thread title all require you to 'do things differently' - practically every game ever made requires you to 'do things differently', hence, I have no idea at all what you're point is.

Different from what you know. People know these games.

Pretty simple.

If these titles were released today they wouldn't be half as good? Oh really, so that's why Fallout New Vegas exists? That's why Balder's Gate EE exists? That's why Dragon Age 3 is being made? What evidence have you got for this stance? Or is it just natural pessimism that's part of or character rather than an actual reality?

What? What's your point? Are you saying FO:NV is a copy of one of the games mentioned? Because it's not.

BG:EE is the same game again - and as such can't be used as an example.

DA3 isn't even released.

I'm saying if Torment or BG was released, today, under another name - but with the same gameplay paradigm using new graphics - people like you would dismiss it for being too modern or the story wouldn't be quite right or whatever.

Because you're biased against new things and nostalgia is clouding your judgment.

Nostalgia? You mean when Ian Jackson made Lord of the Rings it was just an a pointless exercise in nostalgia? You mean 'old stuff' should always stay 'old stuff' and never get remade? Like Fallout or King Kong or… etc

Ian Jackson, ehm what?

Are you saying that Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings is an exact replica of what happened in the book? Are you saying modern technology and movie principles weren't used?

I'm not sure I'm getting your point here.

Many people do replay these games. Why is that somehow an argument against making new versions? That's an argument to make new versions is it not? People don't 'only' replay these old games, they do 'find space and motivation' to replay them though. I honestly don't know why you phrase this last sentence from such a claustrophobicly negative perspective. You think replayability is a negative trait in a game? What's your age deadline before replayability becomes 'over and over'?

I don't believe I've used it as an argument against making new versions.

I'm saying people want new things - whether they realise it or not. People don't want the same thing over and over again.

Some people DO think they want things back the way they were - but such people don't understand human nature - and they don't understand themselves.

 

[MinorityReport]

nonsensical argumentation for the sake of argumentation

People want something new? Like Final Fantasy 14?

Some old things should stay old but other old things should get re-booted?

People want what's familiar but don't want remakes?

None of this makes any sense whatsoever, from any perspective, however you look at it.

You say people wont like the remakes and people will complain about them? Of course, that's the whole point of 'feedback', that's all part and parcel of the entire gaming industry, people complained about the titles in the thread title when they first came out. If you refuse to make games because you are afraid of complaints, no game would ever get made, whatever it is.

But you get kudos for trying. You, for some reason, have decided that certain concepts should stay dead - for no given logical reason.

 

[DArtagnan]

No, I've never said the concepts should stay dead - but that you're clouding your judgment and putting archaic designs on a pedestal where they don't belong.

They were good games - but game design has evolved in many important ways that you've chosen to overlook because you're emotionally invested in the past and can only see the downsides.

That's natural, but it's not the best way to understand yourself or game design.

Anyway, that's just my opinion - and I have no desire to convince you of anything.

 

[MinorityReport]

No, I've never said the concepts should stay dead - but that you're clouding your judgment and putting archaic designs on a pedestal where they don't belong.

They were good games - but game design has evolved in many important ways that you've chosen to overlook because you're emotionally invested in the past and can only see the downsides.

That's natural, but it's not the best way to understand yourself or game design.

Anyway, that's just my opinion - and I have no desire to convince you of anything.

Can you flesh out your 'opinion' with 'examples' please.

 

[DArtagnan]

I could if you displayed an open mind about it, but I think that ship has sailed.

 

[MinorityReport]

I could if you displayed an open mind about it, but I think that ship has sailed.

You seem intent on telling everyone else what they think, want, expect, need - and when challenged to provide actual evidencial back-up for the basis of your 'opinions' you come up short and again insist on telling other people what they 'must' be thinking.

If there is some actual evidence that a 2014 reworking of Icewind Dale would be a total non-starter, then, please, enlighten me, that is the entire point of the thread...

 

[DArtagnan]

You seem intent on telling everyone else what they think, want, expect, need - and when challenged to provide actual evidencial back-up for the basis of your 'opinions' you come up short and again insist on telling other people what they 'must' be thinking.

Well, I do have some insight into the human psyche - I won't try to deny that

As for "evidence" - there's no evidence for the people who're not open-minded. That's like teaching a drowning man how to swallow the sea.

No, if you can display an objective disposition and a desire to listen - I can explain how game design has evolved in some ways, and where it may have "devolved" in other ways.

But you'd need to be able to stay emotionally uninvolved.

If there is some actual evidence that a 2014 reworking of Icewind Dale would be a total non-starter, then, please, enlighten me, that is the entire point of the thread…

You're not getting my point at all.

I'm not saying people realise they don't want the same thing over and over. I'm saying they don't want the same thing over and over.

 

[MinorityReport]

total and complete failure

You're just killing the thread out of your own selfish desire for forum argumentation attention aren't you.

If you actually had a factual answer you'd have made it with your first post wouldn't you.

 

[DArtagnan]

You're just killing the thread out of your own selfish desire for forum argumentation attention aren't you.

If you actually had a factual answer you'd have made it with your first post wouldn't you.

As I said, that ship has sailed

I'm sorry that not agreeing with your proposition means selfish and destructive desire to you - but I guess that tells us something about the security of your position.

Anyway, have a nice day.

 

[MinorityReport]

As I said, that ship has sailed

I'm sorry that not agreeing with your proposition means selfish and destructive desire to you - but I guess that tells us something about the security of your position.

Anyway, have a nice day.

Attack is the best form of defence eh. Though why you feel like I'm attacking you or that your 'opinion' attacks the OP I have absolutely no idea.

You just used 10,000,000 words (exaggeration is so much fun isn't it) to say "bah humbug, it'd never work" without any factual justification for your position.

Why do you expect people to take a sentence like "it's just nostalgia" seriously?

You could apply that to any topic about anything. The difference here is we have an existing and current player/fan base which, in any other field of industry, would 'require' a re-boot, almost as a no-brainer.

But you just wax lyrical about abstract philosophies without any reference at all to physical reality. Worst of all you fill your posts with assumptive reasoning which means nothing to anyone, and then 'expect' people to have a clue as to what it is you're on about.

Fallout - got a re-boot - success.

Discuss how this evidence of re-boot potential disproves that a game such as Icewind Dale could not have a 2014 re-boot - but do so without reference to horrendus assumption and personal pessimism, try to stick to purely business perspective - would a 2014 Icewind Dale-type game be financially milkable? If not, why not (factually).

 

[DArtagnan]

Unfortunately, your clear lack of objectivity is showing - and your inability to read is not helping. That you boil my point down to sentences that I've not used is counterproductive.

Try again.

 

[Drithius]

Ugh, I agree with Dart. People adore the familiar, whether it's sword&fantasy settings, WoW hotkey setups, or games for which the learning curve has long-since been conquered.

And I hate compartmentalized, hive-mind A,B,C,D,E labels.

 

[MinorityReport]

Unfortunately, your clear lack of objectivity is showing - and your inability to read is not helping. That you boil my point down to sentences that I've not used is counterproductive.

Try again.

I'm sorry, I thought you'd said you were giving up posting baiting nonsensical nonsense?

 

[MinorityReport]

Ugh, I agree with Dart. People adore the familiar, whether it's sword&fantasy settings, WoW hotkey setups, or games for which the learning curve has long-since been conquered.

And I hate compartmentalized, hive-mind A,B,C,D,E labels.

Ok... so if people like the familiar, why does that prevent a re-boot?

You might hate compartmentalising, but the word RPG is just that and you spend quality time adhering to a massive compartmentalisation, so... what do you even mean here?

 

[DArtagnan]

I'm sorry, I thought you'd said you were giving up posting baiting nonsensical nonsense?

Just another case of you not being right, I guess