Witcher 3 - Race and Fantasy Tropes

[…]Devs of Exoplanet said it best:

"[…]Our decisions are made not in order to please certain social groups or offend them, but to create a believable and immersive world for a videogame.[…]"
Being believable is key. But fantasy to me, definitely means having NO need for logical explanations, like the presence of a hot/cold climate or the demands/assumptions of real life.

I really don't think the problem is playing/meeting a black, male Inuit or a white female Maasai warrior. The problem is to get a believable one…

Writers/developers are/feel best creating something they know. The outcome will be different (in a believable way) when the creators themselves are more diverse. Get members with a completely different background and life experiences in your team.

Let me experience things that I do not experience in every day life, things that never have happened, things I'd never have thought of.
 
I noticed the lack of Spanish accent in TW3 was certainly offensive. I demand my racial minority that doesn't necessarily fit in a specific region of a fictious world to be duly represented in Cyberpunk.
 
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The problem of "tropes" ( hint : the web site "TV Tropes" is perfect for that ! ) is most certainly there since the beginning of gaming - and it never changed. And it will never change.

This is as difficult as electing someone with a darker skin as an U.S. president. You know, it finally happened, but meanwhile, white policemen are shooting down darkl coloured citizens so often that it is a clear sign that they don't care if someone with a darker skin was innocent or not. Meanwhile these same policemen allow white men to enter highschools full loaded with lots of guns and do massacres there.

And this races thing - has there ever been a game with a cast of protagonists consisting to a high degree of dark skinned people ? You know, even in SWTOR, there you can see races with literally all colours from the rainbow, you hardly ever see dark skinned people as main NPCS or/and quest givers.

Has there ever been an RPG using Africa or South America or Australia as a setting ? No, the developers prefer China or Japan over that. This shows in a way their subtle racism as well.

Have there been African or South American elements been incorporated in RPGs ? No, and in SWTOR, several Jedi-related elements got a Japanese touch, for example the fighting "forms" which got asian or japanese names (I don't know the languages, so I can't say), and in SWTOR several Jedi blades arrived with japanese names (the Shoto, for example). As if there were no other countries in the world which had developed blades which could be used for Star Wars. Wikipedia even shows this subtle racism : It lists a lot more asian swords than swords from any other region.

WEll, fighting against tropes and against subtle racism is like running against a wall of concrete that doesn't move - not even the slightest bit. *sigh*

Writers/developers are/feel best creating something they know.

Yes. And there are seemingly no members from different minorities in the gaming industry, or we would see something they know.
 
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Uhm, Alrik, not that i don't respect your opinion, but you seems to be mixing apples and…i dunno, tunas (orange is too similar :p).

I think you are viewing through everything as being racist to certain degree. IMO, that's just wrong way to look at things.

You say lots of things in game are japanese or chinese, but hardly ever african or such, and that supposedly shows subtle racism.

That's not racism, silly, that's just a simple matter of preferences. If i made a game, there's good chance i'd be set in ancient china or japan, or atleast some fantasy setting based on those.

Am i being subtly racist for that? Chinese culture is extremly large, rich and extremely interesting to me, even more so than european. There's just simply a lot to like; how their architecture from ancient times looks almost alien to us europeans, to the way how those people behave even nowdays (also rather alien to us)…..i just personally really like that setting, as do tons of people around. How is that being racist?

I mean, really now. I'm totally for there being more games in less popular areas of the world (Which is why Never alone was so very interesting for example). But calling people subtly racist because they simply have preference of asian over african settings is…silly to say the least….

And i do remember there being game "zulu wars" or something like that, being made as RTS game, but it was never finished…for whatever reason….(suppusedly set in setting like south africa or something similar).

--edited--
And correct me if i'm wrong, but iirc, Risen 2, as much as people like to bitch about it, actually did at least try to base some of the elements of african tribes and such in their RPG. So yes, at least there has been attempts:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-XnYxDOaYl...vUqC0/s1600/risen2+2012-05-13+21-23-02-12.jpg
 
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For the first time I'm going to say I don't care about a social topic like that. There's a lot of mysoginy and very painful allusions to rape in the W3's world, but noone cares, the most people can do is care about lack of racial diversity. So, sorry racial diversity guys, that's your own problem.

I realize my comment is unhelpful. But I'm tired of supporting others who wouldn't ever return the favor and would instead belittle things important to me if they had a chance.

And oh man, doesn't it feel good not to care, for a change :)
 
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One: this article is six months old. Sorry, Aubrielle, but it is and it was debated on a number of other forums, ending in the same endless battle between GG and antiGG (read ugly). One quick look at the comments section and you would have seen that is an old article.

Second: as we know where this is going, maybe closing the thread would be better.

Third: i recommend reading the comment 75 from alexb on the usgamer. It's the most rational one, though it fell to deaf ears.
 
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For the first time I'm going to say I don't care about a social topic like that. There's a lot of mysoginy and very painful allusions to rape in the W3's world, but noone cares, the most people can do is care about lack of racial diversity. So, sorry racial diversity guys, that's your own problem.

I realize my comment is unhelpful. But I'm tired of supporting others who wouldn't ever return the favor and would instead belittle things important to me if they had a chance.

And oh man, doesn't it feel good not to care, for a change :)

That is portrayal of a setting that it takes place in. How does that automatically promote them as superior moral values?

And wolfsrain has a point...nobody is going to convince anyone of anything here, it never goes that way.
 
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One: this article is six months old. Sorry, Aubrielle, but it is and it was debated on a number of other forums, ending in the same endless battle between GG and antiGG (read ugly). One quick look at the comments section and you would have seen that is an old article.
Wolfsrain, I think it's quite understandable that both, Aubrielle and Couchpotato, didn't notice that the article was six months old; hunting for news I would have missed it too, for there is a date mentioned at the top of the article: 12/30/2015.
Really, the comment section is usually not the thing you're looking at when searching for news and having a clear date at the top.
 
Wolfsrain, I think it's quite understandable that both, Aubrielle and Couchpotato, didn't notice that the article was six months old; hunting for news I would have missed it too, for there is a date mentioned at the top of the article: 12/30/2015.
Really, the comment section is usually not the thing you're looking at when searching for news and having a clear date at the top.

Thank you, Eye. :)

It's true. Six months ago I was a long way away from RPGWatch, and Couch doesn't have time to go through six or eight months of comment surfing for every news post. We both do our best to get you news you might be interested in in a timely manner, and that's the best we can do.

As for closing it, that isn't my decision. If the admins decide it's a problem, they'll act accordingly.
 
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For the first time I'm going to say I don't care about a social topic like that. There's a lot of mysoginy and very painful allusions to rape in the W3's world, but noone cares, the most people can do is care about lack of racial diversity. So, sorry racial diversity guys, that's your own problem.

I realize my comment is unhelpful. But I'm tired of supporting others who wouldn't ever return the favor and would instead belittle things important to me if they had a chance.

And oh man, doesn't it feel good not to care, for a change :)
This makes me sad. To imitate what others are, have been or might be doing to you: i.e. not to care.

I'm sorry because I have enjoyed your contributions at the other, now closed thread. I am sorry I did not participate there - I only noticed the thread after someone mentioned it in another now also closed thread. :)

I do care. And I'm not the only one.

Focus on the people who are willing to listen, who are open-minded, those are the people that'll give your words the attention you would like to see - that'll give you satisfaction.
When in need of energy: focus on those who think alike - that'll give you strength.
But please, do not waste your time on those who have strong opinions that are the opposite of your own. Don't spill seeds in barren ground. The only thing you'll ever get is mutual frustration, annoyance and an upcoming heart attack. :)
 
I don't think diversity of any kind simply makes a game "better" (whatever that means exactly) by itself. I, for one, am generally drawn to a game by its vision and kept there by its execution, so a successful pairing of the two can make any game good for me even if diversity is - consciously or not - eschewed.

That said, there's a reason I cannot warm myself to Armello, a game that from all I read matches vision and execution admirably and certainly matches my tastes in both gameplay and aesthetics. I fear I'm having trouble relating to antropomorphic animals, for some reason.
Even though I curse myself for my own narrow-mindedness, I remain hard-pressed to build up much enthusiasm for almost any game that does not include cultural templates I feel a certain familiarity to such as Unrest or Aurion.

I wouldn't like to imagine all or even a majority of games being like that!

There is a lot to be said about diversity for a number of reasons, but if we're talking about racial (or, in other discussions, social, gender or sexual) diversity, it's about giving more people access to a game that they might otherwise feel less able to relate to.

Of course, vision and execution might run counter to this possibility, and it's any author's prerogative to decide how much if at all to bend his or her vision in order to cater to any hypothetical part of his/her work's future audience (even though "authorship" is debatable in an AAA title).

So while I don't see how anyone could "demand" diversity in a game, I couldn't ever take amiss any group's effort to clamour for more inclusion. And I feel it reeks of privilege if anyone else does.
 
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Thank you, Eye. :)

It's true. Six months ago I was a long way away from RPGWatch, and Couch doesn't have time to go through six or eight months of comment surfing for every news post. We both do our best to get you news you might be interested in in a timely manner, and that's the best we can do.

As for closing it, that isn't my decision. If the admins decide it's a problem, they'll act accordingly.

I don't get it...you place a news story up and then get concerned how people will react to it?

People on here say stuff all the time that is questionable and a lot of the time we don't agree. However, policing it like this would be crazy. Control the message would come to mind.

I don't personally care about having minorities in every game, that seems extreme and counterproductive. I could see if you could make your own character in game and they didn't have any options for you to make a character but really, this isn't even an issue where the game treats the main character as more of an action game construct where you have little control over the design of the character.
 
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Couch sent me a link and I posted it. That was all.

Rune, are you one of those conspiracy theorists that think there's a conspiracy behind everything, ever? I know you don't believe me, but I promise you, there's not. Not here, anyway. Not with our news.

I didn't post this to shove "SJW" (lol) stuff down your throat. I didn't post it because of some twisted political motive. I posted it because I was in a hurry, it was there, it was about a popular game, and I had other stuff going on and I couldn't go look through tons of news because Rune might not like it.

Like I've said before, if you've got serious issue with the news we post, then you're absolutely welcome to send us news links you'd like to see posted. We're an all-volunteer staff with lives of our own. We don't get paid for this. We give our time freely, and posting news is more time consuming than you realize.

This thread has done one thing, and that's make people combative. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to engage you. If you've got formal complaints, PM me or another staff member and we can talk about it. Otherwise, discuss and enjoy.

Or don't.
 
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Er… a news item was posted, and it seemed relevant and interesting enough to generate some discussion. Even though there was some mistake at the beginning (news older than expected), that fact has since been both pointed out and then taken note of by the newsposter. All is (or should be) well.

Could we get back on topic? I still think the issue is interesting and have hopes that a constructive common ground can be found without needing to resort to political stereotypes.

(besides, I spent time and thought on my above posting and would hate to see it go unnoticed ;) )
 
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Couch sent me a link and I posted it. That was all.

Rune, are you one of those conspiracy theorists that think there's a conspiracy behind everything, ever? I know you don't believe me, but I promise you, there's not. Not here, anyway. Not with our news.

I didn't post this to shove "SJW" (lol) stuff down your throat. I didn't post it because of some twisted political motive. I posted it because I was in a hurry, it was there, it was about a popular game, and I had other stuff going on and I couldn't go look through tons of news because Rune might not like it.

Like I've said before, if you've got serious issue with the news we post, then you're absolutely welcome to send us news links you'd like to see posted. We're an all-volunteer staff with lives of our own. We don't get paid for this. We give our time freely, and posting news is more time consuming than you realize.

This thread has done one thing, and that's make people combative. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to engage you. If you've got formal complaints, PM me or another staff member and we can talk about it. Otherwise, discuss and enjoy.

Or don't.

I don't think you read what I posted. I was saying what you posted was fine it was your reaction afterwords that was concerning. I never even said I had a problem with the news post. If people react in a negative way to an article then it is their issue, they can easily ignore it or give a counter claim.

Nice that you went on a little rant about me afterwords. Conspiracy theorist? Please. I've been here a long time, I doubt that I have ever been called that. But thanks for that. As staff I hold what you write to higher level then say some of the more extreme members this site has. I didn't expect this type of post. Maybe I should from now on.

Also for the record I am well aware how this site gets news, as I have contributed both articles and interviews that I have done myself.
 
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Like I've said before, if you've got serious issue with the news we post, then you're absolutely welcome to send us news links you'd like to see posted. We're an all-volunteer staff with lives of our own. We don't get paid for this. We give our time freely, and posting news is more time consuming than you realize.
This is something that I see perhaps too often and Couch partially left because of it.

IMO you're doing a great job. If someone thinks they can do better - they can always apply.
Just ignore critics when the argument is irrational. You don't have to write any explanations, honestly.
 
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IMO you're doing a great job. If someone thinks they can do better - they can always apply.
Just ignore critics when the argument is irrational. You don't have to write any explanations, honestly.

I totally second this. Yet another time joxer and I 100% agree! Post whatever news you want (about RPGs preferably, ha!).

Anyway, I just came to this thread for the entertainment. IMO, anyone trying to analyze whether a game meets some socio-political-economic real-life measure is on a fool's errand. I will always, always stand 100% behind creative freedom, and never support those who tell others how to do their art.
 
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As staff I hold what you write to higher level then say some of the more extreme members this site has.
For future's sake of this site I advocate the other way round: members should be more considerate when adressing a staff member than when communicating with other members of this site. It's a time consuming job without any advantages - consideration could well be the only one. In my humble opinion it is unwise to bite the hand that feeds you - unless you're volunteering of course.

I think Aubrielle is doing wonderful. She (and Couchpotato of course) gets lots of news on the frontpage, she brings the newsbits in an enthusiastic way and it is very obvious she's doing her best.

Yes, she has a way of bringing life into threads sometimes resulting in fireworks going off in more than one corner, but after having read some replies here and there, I'd like to suggest with a lovely British expression: for fuck's sake, give the girl a break.
 
For future's sake of this site I advocate the other way round: members should be more considerate when adressing a staff member than when communicating with other members of this site. It's a time consuming job without any advantages - consideration could well be the only one. In my humble opinion it is unwise to bite the hand that feeds you - unless you're volunteering of course.

I think Aubrielle is doing wonderful. She (and Couchpotato of course) gets lots of news on the frontpage, she brings the newsbits in an enthusiastic way and it is very obvious she's doing her best.

Yes, she has a way of bringing life into threads sometimes resulting in fireworks going off in more than one corner, but after having read some replies here and there, I'd like to suggest with a lovely British expression: for fuck's sake, give the girl a break.

Please feel free to show me where I was disrespectful to her.
 
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This makes me sad. To imitate what others are, have been or might be doing to you: i.e. not to care.
I'm not trying to imitate them, although maybe it looks that way.

Some disclosure: I live in a country where stuff that I care about, like feminism, pretty much has no power at all. Yeah there are some groups but no knowledge about it in general public. To give you an example, here people do understand, at least vaguely, why it's bad for a woman to be sexualized in a game. They must post as "not caring" and thus drive those who care insane by their trolling comments, but they understand. In my country noone even understand the concept of sexualization. If you mention something like that on a site, you'll be laughed at or your comments deleted.

That's why I'm tired of supporting other communities. I will always support lesbians, but not gays, I'm tired of them being ungrateful, as well. I came to see that at least in my own country men always do everything only for men, and helping them is a fool's errand. My internal power of spirit isn't unlimited.

That said, it's not like it's an unbending rule. When I feel like it, I may support other communities, b/c I firmly believe in the egalitarian approach to the social life. But right now I'm tired, of W3's situation in particular. Noone cares how women are horrendously sexualized in the game, instead they care about racism. Among men, I'm sure. If racial diversity was poor only among women in the game, noone would care, I can guarantee you that.

I'm sorry because I have enjoyed your contributions at the other, now closed thread. I am sorry I did not participate there - I only noticed the thread after someone mentioned it in another now also closed thread. :)
Thanks for saying that.

It's a shame the thread got closed, I want to post on topic there. I'm now replaying the game with the mod and it's superb! I actually created a avatar of Yuna :), using an NPC's hair and face that looks similar to hers. Yuna is awesome :)

And I wanted to add to that thread that I see a very big difference between playing as Geralt and my own gender. Right now I'm enjoying the game 200% more. The change in my level enjoyment is so incredibly drastic is can't be adequately described. In other words, it means an awful lot to play an open world game as your gender. So to hell with ELEX and Kingdome Come, I won't play any more open-world game whose creators restrict gender b/c they don't care and fish out lame excuses for that. If you want me to buy ELEX, sell it to me with 50% discount, for my enjoyment of it in comparison with male players will be 50% less.

Focus on the people who are willing to listen, who are open-minded, those are the people that'll give your words the attention you would like to see - that'll give you satisfaction.
You can't imagine how little of those people exist in my real life. :(

But please, do not waste your time on those who have strong opinions that are the opposite of your own. Don't spill seeds in barren ground. The only thing you'll ever get is mutual frustration, annoyance and an upcoming heart attack. :)
Thanks for advice and your kindness! :) You made me feel so much better just now. You're right, talking to "opposition" is fruitless and frustrating in the best of times. But I find talking to "not caring" trolls even more frustrating. Poor Aubrielle, those trolls at this site don't understand what they're doing to her and how bad it feels to be provoked like that. It's a new brand of a troll, an unconscious provoker who lacks empathy to understand what he does to a person.

Wow that was quite a big post :) I didn't even notice writing that much. Must be the writing hunger. Or I just liked your post so much that I felt like replying a lot ;)
 
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