Dark Souls II - Has Ruined Gaming Forever

Dave Cook of VG 24/7 has posted a new article where he shares his opinion that Dark Souls II has has ruined gaming forever. Bold words indeed so read on to find why.

Dark Souls 2 and its predecessors have changed the way many of us view gaming, and in the case of VG 24/7's Dave Cook, he can’t stop comparing it to other new games.

Every so often a title will come along that forces players to think differently about gaming. It’s possible this has happened to you already.

Maybe you felt that the story-telling in The Last of Us was so emotional and profound that other narratives suddenly seemed limp by comparison? Perhaps the entirety of Half-Life 2′s Ravenholm section made subsequent tutorials feel clunky and intrusive?

All it takes is for one expertly-crafted piece of gaming to force our expectations to shift dramatically, and for this gamer, that was From Software’s original Dark Souls.

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More information.

its not really new. we were playing this types of games on spectrum zx all along.

its just something the dumb marketers thought it doesn't pay

Dark souls certainly ruined 3rd person ARPG combat for me. Combat in The Witcher, Skyrim and Risen really feels shit now in comparison.

Lemonhead said:

Dark souls certainly ruined 3rd person ARPG combat for me. Combat in The Witcher, Skyrim and Risen really feels shit now in comparison.

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Yeah.

I had high hopes for Witcher 3. Unfortunately, after seeing the E3 demo featuring Geralts ridiculous, flamboyant spinning strikes, animations entirely for show which would be completely nonviable in a real fight, coupled with underwhelming puffs of magic, I'm afraid it looks like another failure in the gameplay department.

But what a sexy failure! Vast empty forests of "Nothing" and a blood trail never looked so good!

SirJames said:

I had high hopes for Witcher 3. Unfortunately, after seeing the E3 demo featuring Geralts ridiculous, flamboyant spinning strikes, animations entirely for show which would be completely nonviable in a real fight, coupled with underwhelming puffs of magic, I'm afraid it looks like another failure in the gameplay department.

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Exactly this, you never really feel in control of Geralt. He's just spinning and twirling all over the place. In DS you have to weigh every move and strike with great caution since one wrong move will kill you.

I'm still sort of excited about exploring the world in TW3 though. I hope it's not all following blood trails through the forest to the end of each monster quest. Which, let's be honest, is just a way to hold casual players hands and show them where the monster is. Streamlining & dumbing down but disguising it as a part of the world/quest.

All I know that game ruined nothing for me.
I just can't stand respawns, so no buy even if others claim it to be a game of the century.

If quality combat simulation and grinding respawns with a ton of trial-and-error gameplay are the only aspects of a game you can enjoy, then I can see why Dark Souls would ruin games for you forever.

Personally, I'm kinda strange - as I enjoy all kinds of things in my games. I love varied exploration, interesting character progression, intricate itemization, deep stories, complex environment interaction, thorough background lore, dialogue with a ton of C&C, emergent gameplay, non-linear open worlds with more than crates and semi-mute NPCs to find, stealth/sneaking, and so on.

Dark Souls is pretty barebones when it comes to things like the above - and it certainly didn't provide enough of them for me. Demon's Souls is the same way, and I was sick of this particular approach after ~30 hours in the latter. I got Dark Souls for PS3 upon release, fully expecting to love it - as i thought I'd quit Demon's Souls because I was distracted by something else. Turns out I quit because there wasn't enough meat on that formula. I didn't last more than an hour in Dark Souls before it became obvious that the formula was identical - and the only real change was a less linear approach to the world design. Yawn.

Since then, I've tried 2-3 times to get back into it - based on what seems like endless lavish praise. Nah, it's still too barebones and grindy for my tastes - and I'm not seeing any reward except patting myself on the back for grinding and adapting to a one-trick pony over and over again. Where's the interesting story? Where's the character progression that gives me new toys instead of dull stat increases? The itemization is fine if we go by 1997 Diablo standards - but the crafting is simplistic and I just need more.

I guess some people weren't around in the early 80s when there were no such things as savegames or checkpoints.

I remember spending day after day trying to beat games like Manic Miner and Jetpac. That was when I thought I had all the time in the world, and I couldn't predict a gameplay arsenal within 10 minutes.

Unfortunately, I don't have all the time in the world - and I want more than one kind of game that expects me to care about its endless filler combat, however challenging and nuanced its simulation might be.

Again, I'm strange.

As for TW3, everything about that game is calling to me. I felt in complete control of Geralt in TW2 - though combat was fast-paced and not all the game had to offer.

thought I was among the unpopular few when it came to TW2 combat. For me the game that ruined combat in similar games is Duke Patrick's mod. Dark Souls felt very unresponsive to me and I quit within 30 mins of it. Then again, I did play with a M & K so that could've been due to that.

DArtagnan said:

If quality combat simulation and grinding respawns with a ton of trial-and-error gameplay are the only aspects of a game you can enjoy, then I can see why Dark Souls would ruin games for you forever.

Personally, I'm kinda strange - as I enjoy all kinds of things in my games. I love varied exploration, interesting character progression, intricate itemization, deep stories, complex environment interaction, thorough background lore, dialogue with a ton of C&C, emergent gameplay, non-linear open worlds with more than crates and semi-mute NPCs to find, stealth/sneaking, and so on.

Dark Souls is pretty barebones when it comes to things like the above - and it certainly didn't provide enough of them for me. Demon's Souls is the same way, and I was sick of this particular approach after ~30 hours in the latter. I got Dark Souls for PS3 upon release, fully expecting to love it - as i thought I'd quit Demon's Souls because I was distracted by something else. Turns out I quit because there wasn't enough meat on that formula. I didn't last more than an hour in Dark Souls before it became obvious that the formula was identical - and the only real change was a less linear approach to the world design. Yawn.

Since then, I've tried 2-3 times to get back into it - based on what seems like endless lavish praise. Nah, it's still too barebones and grindy for my tastes - and I'm not seeing any reward except patting myself on the back for grinding and adapting to a one-trick pony over and over again. Where's the interesting story? Where's the character progression that gives me new toys instead of dull stat increases? The itemization is fine if we go by 1997 Diablo standards - but the crafting is simplistic and I just need more.

I guess some people weren't around in the early 80s when there were no such things as savegames or checkpoints.

I remember spending day after day trying to beat games like Manic Miner and Jetpac. That was when I thought I had all the time in the world, and I couldn't predict a gameplay arsenal within 10 minutes.

Unfortunately, I don't have all the time in the world - and I want more than one kind of game that expects me to care about its endless filler combat, however challenging and nuanced its simulation might be.

Again, I'm strange.

As for TW3, everything about that game is calling to me. I felt in complete control of Geralt in TW2 - though combat was fast-paced and not all the game had to offer.

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Since i agree with your statements, i was wondering when your game makes the light of day?

SonOfCapiz said:

thought I was among the unpopular few when it came to TW2 combat. For me the game that ruined combat in similar games is Duke Patrick's mod. Dark Souls felt very unresponsive to me and I quit within 30 mins of it. Then again, I did play with a M & K so that could've been due to that.

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If you played M&K without the DSFix mod, then that might very well have something to do with it

Combat is pretty cool in the Souls games and I love how stats factor into your performance with weapons, though I'm not personally in love with the limited ways you can overcome opponents. I'm a big stealth freak - and though there's a single backstab move, I'm not seeing much in the way of variety when it comes to classes and feats. Archery is barebones, there's no stealth, there's a relatively limited selection of spells and so on.

It's fine for a focused melee combat simulator - but a rich RPG system? Hardly.

ikbenrichard said:

Since i agree with your statements, i was wondering when your game makes the light of day?

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If it ever does, it will be a loooong time yet

But it'll have tactical turn-based combat with just a single player character. It will be more reactive and will provide numerous ways to counter attacks, for instance.

Also, combat will be rare and most encounters will have other ways to overcome them.

I'm not a big fan of filler combat - and I generally want a lot more tension in a fight than the vast majority of games provide.

Dark Souls is good for tension, it's just lacking when it comes to exploration, progression and other avenues of success.

My design is very much about providing the player with the freedom to develop a character as he/she sees fit. As in, if you want a character that's entirely based on dialogue/empathy/diplomacy - the system will allow you to talk/charm your way out of a lot of encounters.

But let's just say there's a long, long way to go yet.

Anyway, that was a sidetrack - I apologize.

In terms of combat, dark and challange dark souls is miles ahead of most other A-RPG's. In most modern RPG's combat is just added as a filler, it is not challanging and not much time has been spent on the mechanics, it is simple there so that the game would not be a interactive story.

Now here is hoping someone could combine dark souls system with story and graphics of the witcher! That would be just WOW!

GothicGothicness said:

Now here is hoping someone could combine dark souls system with story and graphics of the witcher! That would be just WOW!

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If they added stealth, archery, and magic on the same level as the melee combat, then that would be wonderful.

But I don't want a huge sprawling RPG and be locked down to just cool melee combat.

Witcher is already too limited for my tastes in that way, which is probably why I ultimately prefer games like Skyrim - because I'm more about freedom than most.

Dark Souls is not mere melee combat, this is about:
- discovery,
- exploration,
- piecing together the events, places and NPCs to the overarching story,
- stats, gear, and NPC (companion) management,
- understanding the locations and enemies to your advantage (hence there is HUGE scope for and the game provides for sneeking, ranged combat, different and varied magic, and crafting).

The misconception is that focus in the media is about the difficulty of the game, which they normally tie to combat. I am not good at combat but I finished Dark Souls 2, and on NG+, because of 'managing' the gameplay and 'understanding' the environment.

In fact melee combat is not the best that I have seen (Blade of Darkness melee combat is better in my view).

But still, yes - Dark Souls did ruin 3rd person action/adventure/rpg games for as they are very shallow compared to these masterpieces.

DArtagnan said:

If they added stealth, archery, and magic on the same level as the melee combat, then that would be wonderful.

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You must have missed alot in your play:

You can sneak behind enemies and backstab - it is one of the most satisfying experiences.

There are many different types of bows and crossbows (and arrows and bolts) that can be upgraded and infused, and the game and world design provide significant freedom and opportunity for their effectives use. In fact, I play as a ranger, and it is well done - you even cause more damage if you shoot in the head (in Dark Souls 2).

There are also many schools of magic in Dark Souls (1/2), and in fact magic might be overpowered in Dark Souls 2.

I am mostly talking about Dark Souls 2, as I stopped half way in Dark Souls 1.

SpoonFULL said:

You must have missed alot in your play:

You can sneak behind enemies and backstab - it is one of the most satisfying experiences.

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What do you mean I missed it? I specifically mentioned it. You can backstab - which has nothing to do with sneaking. You just need to stand in a specific place - which can be somewhat annoying with the awkward camera angles.

That said, I'm aware that you can "walk" and try not to alert enemies - but AFAIK, there's no actual stealth or assassin abilities.

There are many different types of bows and crossbows (and arrows and bolts) that can be upgraded and infused, and the game and world design provide significant freedom and opportunity for their effectives use.

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Sure, but the actual mechanics are simplistic. It doesn't feel dynamic or well implemented, like it does in Skyrim. It's not bad as such, it's just nothing special - and I like my archery.

It feels slow and awkward - and the whole aiming/locking thing is clunky given the constant danger of dying. I feel like I'm figthing the UI/camera when using archery - which is why I don't enjoy it.

In Skyrim, I feel like a bad-ass archer, which is exactly what I want from that kind of experience.

There are also many schools of magic in Dark Souls (1/2), and in fact magic might be overpowered in Dark Souls 2.

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Well, there aren't many schools - but there are a bunch of spells. I guess I just never found them too interesting.

Again, in my opinion - the attribute driven system makes every character feel similar. As in, you don't really feel like a Wizard just because you wield spells, as anyone can do it. There are no magical perks/traits/feats - just a couple of attributes for mana or whatever. Dull.

I like games that allow me to create distinct characters with unique powers that aren't available to others, and I love non-combat abilities. Stuff like sneaking, lockpicking, pickpocketing, bartering, charming and so on.

Skyrim uses an open system as well, but the Perks can make your character feel much more distinct.

Dark Souls is about combat combat combat - and that's fine, but not really my kind of RPG. You don't enter a new area thinking about how much stuff there is to find and read - or how you're going to explore every nook and cranny before moving on. You enter an area looking for your next fight, and then you find a potion glowing somewhere - or one of the few unique items lying around. That doesn't feel much like exploration to me.

Well, it could be a good experience - but then it'd need to have proper cooperative multiplayer like Diablo. I don't like the odd and clunky way you team up in the Souls games.

I think it would be really cool as a straight-up cooperative action RPG, though the itemization seems relatively barebones to me. The whole crafting with +1 +2 +3 stuff is boring and predictable. I know there are unique weapons - but the overall arsenal comes off as a joke compared to the best loot games.

Playing a combat simulator with barebones story and sparsely detailed "grim" environments, alone, just doesn't do it for me. I know some people are fascinated by large and mostly empty open areas with beautiful vistas, but I like a lot of stuff to find, read and investigate.

Such is how we all differ.

To me, the Souls games have barely evolved since Demon's Souls - and it's just the same game over and over. I'm not seeing much in the way of evolution - very unlike Morrowind -> Oblivion -> Skyrim.

Once they start adding something significant - I'll check into them again.

I don't know what the author is talking about, gaming was ruined forever back in 1990 when Ultima 6 was released and a large, finely-detailed open-world went beyond what any RPG had done before. I admit I haven't checked in since then to see if that concept ever caught on. But undoubtably, since no one had ever done that before, no developer would ever recognize its potential and take the good parts of that game and expand on those concepts.

It kind of sucks when something sets a new standard and others arent following. After U7 i thought that type of attention to detail would be the new standard in RPG's, i couldn't have been more wrong.

But i'm not sure it's "correct" to think like that, you probably need to think in terms of "the sum of all parts", otherwise a lot of things would suck, including movies and music.

Well, in some ways, System Shock really did ruin all other first person games for me - but to say that would be ignoring that there are other ways to make games interesting.

Then again, I guess exaggeration is the primary way to get attention in the media.

Strangely enough, I kind of agree with DArtagnan!

I love so much about DS2, but the constant combat gets tiring. Yeah there's "dialog" (really just exhausting NPC responses and a few choices (you can kill NPCs) but it's mostly grinding through a puzzle-world to kill a boss... only to find a new area of puzzle-world with more difficult mobs leading to another boss.

I've sunken a lot of hours into DS2. But I haven't gotten past Harvest Valley. I've gotten there on three different characters and then get a weird deflated feeling that it's just going to be more of the same, more of the same.

Witcher 2 combat (what I played of it at least) was bad. The long, tedious and linear beginning throws you into battle with a dozen enemies and allies a few different times. At least in Dark Souls, enemies don't "take turns" hitting you. If you get surrounded by even 2-3 low level bad guys you can easily be overwhelmed and killed.