Sui Generis: Exanima - Beta Arena Mode

Stingray said:

Or perhaps we wonder precisely how it will be finished as advertised, given that $200K would be nowhere near what's needed to produce this sort of game normally. It's also worth noting that the game is already almost 2 years late (compared to Kickstarter "estimated delivery") and seems to be nowhere near completion.

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The problem seems to lay over the fact that you do misinformed statements, but that's a bit understandable if you sole source of information is their kickstarter as they only use it just for big announcements. They briefly explained their situation over KS some time ago, but it have been discussed more recently over their official forums, the steam forums, and the lead project stream channel (which he uses to chat with the fans in a daily basis) why the game got delayed and the reason behind that quantity of money.

Originally they had a planned a development timeline with the goal of releasing the game with the basic functionality in a working state, but not very polished. They intended to make money selling it and keep adding features incrementally and rely on the community locate the bugs. But they didn't expected the huge amount of critique and feature request they received, specially regarding combat. So at some point of the early development there was a change of plans and the timeline had to be different. Instead of releasing updates with basic functionality they gave us very polished arena and dungeon updates, devoting a fair amount of development time to internal testing, then they listened the feedback and worked to improve it even more. They worked in the combat in this recursive manner for over a year and it certainly shows, but obviously time passed and the budget grew weaker, so they moved on and devoted manpower to other aspects of the game, making updates to the combat only when they have some idea instead of sit and think how to improve it even more.

Yeah you are right in that bit, they are late and they don't have it easy to sustain themselves, i am not going to expand on that because it involves personal matters. But the fact is they do keep giving us who follow the project closely beta patches in a regular basis. The game is being finished slowly but steadily because they are as motivated as the first day. You don't have to take my word tho, each couple of months steam get updates with the promised features and with new ones so... yeah, i fail to see what is fishy.

user404 said:

Originally they had a planned a development timeline with the goal of releasing the game with the basic functionality in a working state, but not very polished. They intended to make money selling it and keep adding features incrementally and rely on the community locate the bugs.

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... which would indeed come close to scam. This was clearly not communicated in the KS campaign.

When I pledged the minimum I knew there was a good chance I was just throwing my money away. So I'm not mad.

I was intrigued enough to pledge to see what they could come up with. They are still working on something so bonus, I guess. I'll just keep waiting and see what happens.

I can understand people being upset though, if they pledged a significant amount or were actually expecting them to produce a really good game.

It always seemed incredibly overly ambitious and unlikely to begin with with requested funding. But it may develop into something worthwhile yet.

Morrandir said:

… which would indeed come close to scam. This was clearly not communicated in the KS campaign.

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That's a major problem I find with most kickstarters as the developer would rather answer questions on a forum, or other way instead of the kickstarter page.

The main reason is I don't have time to check 100's of forums, or live streams for updates. I rather get a e-mail to notify me of an update like kickstarter.

Another pet peeve is when developers make every update for backers only. As sometimes I wont back a game, but will buy it when it's released instead.

Thrasher said:

It always seemed incredibly overly ambitious and unlikely to begin with with requested funding. But it may develop into something worthwhile yet.

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It may well be a good game when it's released, but I've been burned by other Early Access games. Some have been in Early Access for four years already.

I like your new avatar Couch.

Thrasher said:

I like your new avatar Couch.

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Thanks I love it also but it took a title effort with some Photoshoping.

I just hate I'm restricted to a small avatar again.

Couchpotato said:

That's a major problem I find with most kickstarters as the developer would rather answer questions on a forum, or other way instead of the kickstarter page.

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Yes, but vital information like this must be included in the campaign overview. Not in answers to user questions, be it on Kickstarter or own forums.

But we should be careful judging here as we don't know if user404's version is actually true.
It could still be that this wasn't their intention and they're just horrible in estimating workload and/or general project management.

Morrandir said:

… which would indeed come close to scam. This was clearly not communicated in the KS campaign.

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Mind to explain why? they wanted to deliver everything they promised within a timeframe in a basic but functional state. Once the game was out they wanted to polish and to update it indefinitely with free extra content, as a sum of what was promised. Where is the scam there? i think what they are doing is pretty laudable. They are focused in doing the best game possible instead of thinking what they can chop and put in a paid DLC. Take the overhauled arena as example, it adds twice the value to exanima. They plan to add more things like that after the game is released, many things planned for SG but outside the scope of exanima, and everything free of charge.

Whether or not they would have accomplished their original plan in time if the community were less picky we will never know. I am personally ok with the current development pace. I appreciate to see the care and quality of everything they provide, and overhauling certain systems of the game while the game was still in design stage means gaining time and possibilities in the long term.

I can't really comprehend many of the points i am reading here. As far i see the main complain is that the game is taking longer than scheduled, but to me the explanation is pretty reasonable and even positive because it involves taking more user feedback. I understand not everybody will agree and all they would like to do is playing the game ASAP. But going so far to call it a scam...? game developer life seems to be rough. No matter if you listen your customers or not, you are doomed.

user404 said:

Originally they had a planned a development timeline with the goal of releasing the game with the basic functionality in a working state, but not very polished.

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Morrandir said:

… which would indeed come close to scam. This was clearly not communicated in the KS campaign.

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user404 said:

Mind to explain why?

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Sure.

The following features were announced in the KS campaign. Underlined are the passages that in my opinion contradict the resulting game have to "the basic functionality in a working state, but not very polished".

• Believable fiction. Carefully crafted and researched so it feels authentic down to the smallest detail, the world of Sui Generis will draw you in and captivate you with its depth and complexity.
• Non Linear Story. Write your own story. Create your own character and then interact with the world and events as you see fit. Who knows what might happen? It's not written, it's up to you.
• Reactive characters. Characters and creatures do not have fixed roles. They will react to anything you say or do, how you dress and what tone you set. We're putting the word Character in NPC.
• Physics driven combat. Whether swinging your weapon, shooting an arrow or manipulating the world with your mind, you can expect spectacular and always unique results.
• Interactive environment. Nothing is bolted down or fake, the environment is fully interactive and can play an important tactical role, as well as just provide lots of fun.
• Deep character customisation. Don't just choose a class but create your own unique build and develop your own play style. The paths to success are almost limitless.
• Meaningful Items. Plentiful items, all with plausible qualities and values. Even a rusty sword is effective in the right hands and powerful items will be special and well guarded.

Of course you can argue about what "basic functionality" and "polishing" actually means, but these announcements create an impression of a finished game with a lot of great features.

And of course it's naive to think that this can be done with 160k £. But that's not my problem as a backer. This is the developer's responsibility.
Again, what they announced is in no way what we see today. Considering that in May we are 2 years behind announced release date everybody has to accept that they mismanaged.

I'm not mad at them for mismanaging. Project management in software development and especially in game development is a tough job and it's ok to fail if you're unexperienced. People make mistakes.
Also Kickstarter is always a risk where each backer needs to understand that complete failure and complete loss of money is a possible outcome.

What I would be mad for is if all of that actually was their intention.
But as I said before I don't have evidence for this except your comment here.

Morrandir said:

Again, what they announced is in no way what we see today.

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Maybe we are not talking about the same company then? when i play exanima this is what i see:

✓ Carefully crafted: each room have a purpose and it's part of the lore.

✓ Authentic down to the smallest detail: a lot of aspect of the game are original and very innovative. Have you been to the last level? doesn't it feels like an alien place? did you fought the monster? have you ever fought something like that?

X As you see fit: not the scope of a dungeoneer. We will see it in SG.

✓ React to anything you say or do: There is still huge room for improvement, and the undead personalty is limited by their intelligence. But they already do have individual personalities and reacts differently to different stuff. Even simplistic, it is quite superior of most of the games NPCs AI already.

- Character in NPC: I'd expect to see more of this with your human recruits and hirelings soon.

✓ Expect spectacular and always unique results: Each exanima playthrough i do ends differently. Combat can be really amazing and dynamic.

✓ Nothing is bolted down or fake: It is already there in a high degree. Physics and let you achieve a lot of things and take advantage of the environment. The puzzle area have a lot of interactive props. I know a quite few more possibilities that will ship eventually.

✓ Deep character customization: We got 2 new skills few hours ago. Still not enough to specialize because we haven't reached the cap, but at this rate it won't take long.

✓ Develop your own play style: Certainly. I know buddies who like to play it subtle, and others that like stumping with all what the got. The game allows you that. There are already some system in place to simulate NPC view in different levels of darkness, they will work soon. Exanima have some RPGs aspect but it is not a 100% one, so this aspect wont be as big as in SG.

X Paths to success are almost limitless: It certainly wont be that way in exanima because of the reasons stated above. I don't know if exanima will have some sort of multiple endings, the developers are really strict about not revealing important lore aspects. But might be the case

✓ Plentiful items: More than 1000 props and increasing, some unique to exanima. With the introduction of procedural generated armors, and soon weapons they are virtually infinite. The weapons system will be really cool, a sword will be done of parts. You can have two with the same handle but a different blade.

So yeah, they are delivering what they promised. We can discuss the pace, we can discuss the way, we can discuss when SG will be out, we can discuss whatever you want. But i refuse to acknowledge this team is trying to scam us just because.. why? they are so ambitious? they had to change the ETA for taking feedback? they asked too little money? They are more active in their forums that in KS? BS.

Couchpotato said:

Another pet peeve is when developers make every update for backers only. As sometimes I wont back a game, but will buy it when it's released instead.

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This doesn't apply anymore with this game btw. You can opt in
a beta version in steam. This was you get to test it after we the backers helped taking out nastier bugs, and before it goes completely public. The steam beta is currently much more polished than the public branch tbh.

I want to explain a few things regarding Exanima and Sui Generis given it is patently obvious some people do not understand what is happening here.

It seems that two issues that are being raised. First, that this project is overly ambitious and probably won't succeed. Second, that Exanima appears to be some kind of combat sim which wasn't what people had in mind when they backed Sui Generis.

Ok, well let's deal with the bad news. I'm afraid to say that technically speaking both of these points are correct.

But there is good news, and if you're a fan of RPGs then it's the best news you're ever going to hear

Sui Generis is indeed overly ambitious. Such a thing has never been attempted before, and you'd have to be kinda crazy to try it. Luckily for us these devs are exactly the right kind of crazy. They're obsessed!

However, unfortunately an RPG of this magnitude and scope requires assets. Models, AI, UI, combat, an endless array of systems that will be necessary in order for Sui Generis to function. So there are a couple of ways the devs could go about doing this. They could disappear for God only knows how long while they work on all this stuff…

Or they can involve us in what they're doing while they're doing it, which is what they've done. Exanima is a prelude to Sui Generis, but is also effectively two games in its own right.

1) The Arena: Since combat is required in SG, and combat is incredibly sophisticated, the ideal vehicle to develop this is Exanima (Arena). The devs can demonstrate what they're doing, players can test it and give feedback, etc. Except the way some players rave about Arena/combat you could be forgiven that thinking the devs are creating a combat sim rather than an RPG - nothing could be further from the truth!

2) The Story: Exanima also has a Story mode which is a prelude to SG. It explains some of the events leading up to the world of SG. The story is deep. It's the deepest I've ever seen attempted in an RPG. And the manifestation is unique. Players are not spoon fed the story, they have to investigate it. Don't expect to simply arrive at the next NPC to be given an update and directions about where to head next. That's not how Exanima/SG work.

I suppose a casual player could infer roughly what was going on, at least in part. But the story exists regardless of the player. To actually understand what happened, what is happening, where we are, what are we doing here, what is going to happen, etc, you're going to have to think. The environment is the evidence, the clues are all around us. Are you smart, observant and determined enough to figure it out?

This is one of the things I most love about Exanima. It gives me a reason to communicate with other players so we can discuss theories, chat about what we've seen, and try to figure this out together. It's not easy and it can keep us occupied for a great deal of time. Meanwhile, we're all having countless hours of fun

To conclude, I'm looking for an RPG, not a combat sim, and Exanima is fundamentally an RPG rather than a combat sim, make no mistake about that. The devs have not lost their way, and have not deviated from the original vision. In fact it's precisely the original vision that's driving them, and Exanima.

Sure, it might seem a bit odd that SG has somehow become derailed into Exanima (Arena), but once you understand what's going on then it makes perfect sense. These guys are really thorough, and they're going to push back the boundaries in RPGs on every front as far as they possibly can. And yes, that includes combat, but it also applies to just about everything else too.

What these devs are doing is amazing. They will change the shape of RPGs to come. I've been playing RPGs and computer games for almost 40 years and I never saw anything like this before.

It'll take a while, could be a couple of years yet. So you can wait. Or you can get involved and observe first-hand how Exanima/SG revolutionize this genre. There's already plenty to sink your teeth into.

WARNING: Do not play Exanima/SG if you tend to get obsessed with RPGs! They will suck you into a black hole from which there is no escape!!!