EA's reasoning of DLC scamware

sakichop said:

You don't have to justify your purchases to anyone, much less me Joxer.

I just think if you find DLC to be a problem and you still support it you should at least acknowledge your part in the problem.

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That I do.

Well, there are (as joxer touched upon) DLC's and there are DLC's. Not all of them are horse armour. Some, like Dawnguard (which I happened to like) and Dragonborn for Skyrim are more like the expansion packs/addons of yesterday. I have no problem with those.

There are also the DLC's for train simulators and similar games, which compare to special locomotives and train sets you could get for your (physical) model railway (at a much higher price). I have no problems with those either.

But the others…. not good.

pibbur who admittedly has no problems with a lot of things. Too many things?

sakichop said:

I'll just respond to a couple things here as I think we'll both be just wasting are time with the other stuff.

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You could be right.

I don't appreciate you attacking my character and basically calling me a liar. I've never said I throw my money around carelessly. Ive said I have a yearly budget that I haven't reached in years ( sounds smart not careless) I've said I'm aware that buying the Titan x is splurging and not a good value which I admitted in this very thread, I've said that I splurge on hardware because I want the best possible performance but I'm actually pretty modest in other areas.So I'm not being dishonest or dancing around anything.

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All I said is that you're careless about what you buy when it comes to hardware, and you just agreed.

Liar is a strong word, but you've definitely danced around it.

As I said, though, I don't think it's worth our time to go into personal details - as there's really no way to prove it, and it's of no use to us here.

As for you telling me what kind of person I am with the whole fat and smoking thing. No , I don't find them 100% responsible but probably 80-90%. You can give people a pass if you want but I won't. It seems in the past 20 years or so it's become pretty common place for people to blame their woes on everything or everyone else. It's high time that people start taking responsibility for their own decisions. Yes companies suppliy the stuff but we don't have to eat it, smoke it or purchase it.

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You keep talking about blame and what not. Once again, I don't care. I don't give anyone a pass - as no one deserves it. Not you, not I - no one.

We're all part of it.

But it's still not good for the industry.

Giving the people taking advantage of weak consumers a pass is your choice, and I simply can't agree that they're not a huge part of the equation. At least half the problem, that's for sure.

You and I both buy DLC. The difference is I don't see it as a problem in the industry. I'm not a fan of it in general but it's not a big deal to me. You on the other hand find it to be a problem in the industry yet you support it by purchasing it. So in essence your contributing to what you think is a problem in the industry but you don't think you shouldn't be to blame. It's EA.

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You're not listening. I've admitted that I'm part of the problem, and I'm not excusing myself in any way. I'm simply saying there's nothing to be done about it, as the majority rules.

As long as I don't represent the majority, I'm powerless.

That said, I very rarely buy individual DLC, and when I do - I do it through cheap keys so as to ensure my money doesn't go to the pocket of publishers. That makes no difference, either - but at least I'm minimising the negative impact of my choice.

My world isn't black and white, as I don't need to lie to myself to feel right about the world. I simply accept that feeling right about it is a delusion.

But that's me.

EA is extremely bad for the industry, yes.

Wisdom said:

If you are taking votes on this, I believe its 100% the consumer.

Very tired of people blaming everything else on their own lack of willpower to NOT purchase something.

You don't "accidentally" make a purchase. There is no liability to anyone besides the person that took a number of steps intentionally resulting in the purchasing and consumption of something.

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You're not listening. I'm not here to blame anyone or excuse anyone.

I'm pointing out that both companies and consumers are part of the problem. They're to blame? Sure, but that's not what I care about.

To deny that companies are taking advantage of a situation, and that it's destructive to the industry is simply ignorant.

But I don't care about blame, guilt or shame.

It simply is what it is.

As for making a purchase, that's hardly the problem.

The problem is paying more for something than it's worth to you, and if you're going to claim that it's easy for the average to consumer to establish the value of DLC in whatever game, then I call bullshit.

Expecting the average mainstream gamer or some father to a son who's a gamer to study the ins and outs of some cheap DLC weapon pack to ensure it's actually worth it, is ludicrous.

We live in a world where time is limited and information takes time to accumulate - and DLC works because the barrier of entry is impulse-level low. EA is not part of the problem here? Oh my.

I don't know if it comes as a surprise to you, but you and I don't represent the average gamer - and our level of insight into DLC and its value is not widespread.

Get real.

DArtagnan said:

As for making a purchase, that's hardly the problem.

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Take an economics or statistics class.
Companies stop producing products when its no longer profitable.

As the price comes up, the number of people purchasing goes down. Pricepoint is set at the ideal junction between max number of people and max dollar value.

Your whole paragraph on the "worth" of an item is silly. You can't gauge worth to an individual, and you can't get a company to explain the "worth" on every product.

I indeed hold the consumer responsible for buying garbage products repeatedly.
Why should EA change anything if consumers are gonna consume? Its a company, with shareholders, and employees. It sells what YOU buy.

People pretend to have this moral highground while they buy, but they still support it. You think you can get companies to not focus on profit? I do believe you need to get real.

DArtagnan said:

and DLC works because the barrier of entry is impulse-level low.

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Thats exactly what I said. Zero willpower = Purchase Purchase.

Don't blame lack of impulse control on someone else.

I don't know what all the fuss is about in this thread.

Personally I have never bought any DLC, in the past I have bought expansion packs but not that often as there are very few games I care to replay or revisit once done with them.

My children will and have bought retard guns or car or whatever in whatever game they are playing on their PS4's. I try and steer them away from wasting their money on them but at the end of the day it is money that have earned or received as gifts.

I think if it is good enough to be in the game to begin with then put it in there. If I need it to complete the game then I wouldn't buy the game to begin with.

Wisdom said:

Take an economics or statistics class.
Companies stop producing products when its no longer profitable.

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Take a history class. Publishers made a profit before DLC was invented.

Your whole paragraph on the "worth" of an item is silly. You can't gauge worth to an individual, and you can't get a company to explain the "worth" on every product.

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That's exactly the point. They rely on it being very hard to guage and communicate in an accurate way, which is why the barrier of entry it low enough that people take the risk.

I indeed hold the consumer responsible for buying garbage products repeatedly.
Why should EA change anything if consumers are gonna consume? Its a company, with shareholders, and employees. It sells what YOU buy.

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So, you're the sort of person who thinks creating and profiting from garbage is the right thing to do, because you can.

Ok, cool. That's probably where we differ.

People pretend to have this moral highground while they buy, but they still support it. You think you can get companies to not focus on profit? I do believe you need to get real.

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I don't believe I can change anything. You clearly aren't listening.

But, unlike you, I don't think bad things are good because they can't be changed.

Wisdom said:

Thats exactly what I said. Zero willpower = Purchase Purchase.

Don't blame lack of impulse control on someone else.

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We all have a lack of impulse control, that's the point of exploiting it.

You have a lack of impulse control as well.

I don't blame you for being weak and stupid, that's human nature. I'm saying it's being exploited and it's bad for the industry.

That said, I'm not sure I agree that taking a risk on something being worth the money, when you're not paying much, is weak. It's just unfortunate that it has to be a risk.

CelticFrost said:

I don't know what all the fuss is about in this thread.

Personally I have never bought any DLC, in the past I have bought expansion packs but not that often as there are very few games I care to replay or revisit once done with them.

My children will and have bought retard guns or car or whatever in whatever game they are playing on their PS4's. I try and steer them away from wasting their money on them but at the end of the day it is money that have earned or received as gifts.

I think if it is good enough to be in the game to begin with then put it in there. If I need it to complete the game then I wouldn't buy the game to begin with.

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I think you're seeing fuss where there isn't any.

There are people who disagree about something, that's all

DArtagnan said:

I think you're seeing fuss where there isn't any.

There are people who disagree about something, that's all

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I'm with Dart on this one Celtic. There isn't any fuss, just people that view the same thing from different angles.

DArtagnan said:

Take a history class. Publishers made a profit before DLC was invented.

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Irrelevant.

DArtagnan said:

So, you're the sort of person who thinks creating and profiting from garbage is the right thing to do, because you can.

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I'm not saying its right. I'm saying Dart is incapable of determining whether its garbage to the world or not. Half the people probably see no issue with the quality or price of any DLC. I'm saying that people have to make a personal choice to purchase stuff. If they get burned, don't repeat purchase.

DArtagnan said:

I don't believe I can change anything. You clearly aren't listening.
But, unlike you, I don't think bad things are good because they can't be changed.

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You have a habit of making up statements on what another has said. Its not a great tactic with the exception of trolling. Nobody said bad things are good.

DArtagnan said:

We all have a lack of impulse control, that's the point of exploiting it.

You have a lack of impulse control as well.

I don't blame you for being weak and stupid, that's human nature. I'm saying it's being exploited and it's bad for the industry.

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By this logic are you implying that the whole human race is weak and stupid, completely lacking impulse control? Because if thats what you are saying, then the only end result is a nanny state that tells you what you can and can't do. Regulated to the max because you humans are too stupid to try and think, but just throw their hands up and say... someone else please save me from everything negative, I can't control all this humanness.

Just to say, the statement from EA's COO resulted in some hot discussion also on escapist:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.881018-EA-Exec-On-Disc-DLC-Complaints-Are-Nonsense

Irrelevant.

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Hardly.

Wisdom said:

I'm not saying its right. I'm saying Dart is incapable of determining whether its garbage to the world or not. Half the people probably see no issue with the quality or price of any DLC. I'm saying that people have to make a personal choice to purchase stuff. If they get burned, don't repeat purchase.

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So, you agree that it's not right to produce garbage and profit from it?

My opinion is irrelevant here.

I assume we agree that there is such a thing as garbage products, whether or not I think of them as such?

If it's not all garbage, then why would a consumer stop buying again? The problem is that he can't know.

If he stops altogether, he's also going to miss out on the good products.

The problem isn't that "DLC is bad" - it's that the model is opaque and extremely prone to misleading marketing.

It's not rocket science.

You have a habit of making up statements on what another has said. Its not a great tactic with the exception of trolling. Nobody said bad things are good.

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Ehm, you started by saying I needed to get real if I thought I could change the focus on profit.

So, making up statements would seem to be on you here.

By this logic are you implying that the whole human race is weak and stupid, completely lacking impulse control? Because if thats what you are saying, then the only end result is a nanny state that tells you what you can and can't do. Regulated to the max because you humans are too stupid to try and think, but just throw their hands up and say… someone else please save me from everything negative, I can't control all this humanness.

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I didn't say "completely" lacking impulse control.

But, yes, we're all weak and stupid, and we all lack impulse control. This is news to you?

I have no idea why you think the "end result" must be a nanny state.

There's a difference between being weak and stupid, and then being unable to think.

I'm saying it's not necessarily right to exploit weakness and stupidity. In fact, I think it's destructive in many if not most cases.

You seem to think otherwise, and that's cool. I simply don't agree.

Anyway, we're not getting anywhere. You put all blame for the DLC situation on the consumers - and you don't seem to think publishers have any part in it.

I find that ludicrous, but it's no big deal.

Thanks for the discussion.

Wisdom said:

I'm with Dart on this one Celtic. There isn't any fuss, just people that view the same thing from different angles.

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Maybe Fuss wasn't the right word. It just seems very simple to me.

If people keep buying it companies will keep making it. Most of it from what I can see doesn't effect the out come of any game. So if people want to waste money of Horse Armor power to them.

Myself as I have stated before I don't buy it, I don't believe in it and think it is a total waste of money.

A trend that is getting worst and worst to me is EE games coming out a year or two after the release of the game. I think if more people stop buying games and waiting for the EE copies this would really hurt gaming companies. Or better yet force them to product a finish product on release day.

I get it there are so many different systems on the market there is going to be some bugs in games. The odd patch might be needed or upgrade but it seems if you can wait X amount of time you get a better game at a cheaper price. OH!! and a lot of the time with the DLC.

TotalBiscuit's comment on the mentioned interview with COO:
EA's Peter Moore on DLC and lack of SP in Star Wars: Battlefront - Aug. 19, 2015

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiQ5aYyOnnc

It would be great to have it in text form, but well, noone's perfect.

Multiplayer = DRM -> no offline singleplayer games anymore ?

No.
IIRC there are DRMfree games on GOG that contain multiplayer.
Multiplayer is not DRM. It's just EA's idea to milk some more cash on games that are supposed to be singleplayer only like ME3. Sure, some people did play multiplayer there. Me? I wish I didn't have to pay for that part when buying the game - it would have cost cheaper.

Multiplayer in the sense as if the game requires you to be constantly connected to the publisher's server if you want to play multiplayer with that thing.
In this sense, the required constant connection to the publisher's server = DRM.

Other approaches to multiplayer are of course not affected by this thing.