The Bethesda-Hate Phenomenon

I think the complaints about Bethesda's writing are somewhat exaggerated.

The npc dialogue is sub-par no doubt, but the lore is some of the best in the industry, and that needs to be considered. The quest plots fall somewhere in the middle imo, with some of them being quite interesting, while others are laughably bad.

Better voice acting is something they also really need to work on imo. Maybe even more so than the writing.

I think they do well with the lore, but I don't think Oblivion (Shivering Isles excepted) really made much use of it all. For the most part it was just some stuff there in books if you felt like stopping and reading them. The past games in my opinion made much better use of the lore, especially Morrowind. The whole main quest had a huge amount of lore to it and discovering that, I felt, was really interesting.

Their npc dialog is to me, quite frankly, horrid. Since they do so well with the lore and in game books this is somewhat puzzling to me. They also pretty much offer zilch in the way of choice and consequence which is something I feel connects the player more to the game and its world. They've shown with the Warp of the West that they are really too lazy to deal with an consequences of diverging choices.
 
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Messages
966
I think they do well with the lore, but I don't think Oblivion (Shivering Isles excepted) really made much use of it all. For the most part it was just some stuff there in books if you felt like stopping and reading them. The past games in my opinion made much better use of the lore, especially Morrowind. The whole main quest had a huge amount of lore to it and discovering that, I felt, was really interesting.
Agree completely - this is my main complaint about Oblivion.

Their npc dialog is to me, quite frankly, horrid. Since they do so well with the lore and in game books this is somewhat puzzling to me.
It's always been different people doing these aspects. Let's hope they brought some new talent in, or that the old people get better with time. At the same time I think the writing was actually overall a bit better in Oblivion (although there are plenty of examples of plain bad), but it was brought down by the sometimes poor voice-acting.

They also pretty much offer zilch in the way of choice and consequence which is something I feel connects the player more to the game and its world. They've shown with the Warp of the West that they are really too lazy to deal with an consequences of diverging choices.
Morrowind had at least some choices, e.g. the mutually exclusive Great Houses and Factions. Oblivion had a few sidequests with some choices, but that was it. Quite underwhelming, although I find it is not that much of an issue for me in these wide open sandbox games. The warp in the west thing and choices not carrying over between games, I am fine with. But it shouldn't stop them to implement important choices in the mainquest - I'd rather have another Warp in the West, or an asteroid impact wiping out Skyrim if thats what it takes...
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
3,508
I think they do well with the lore, but I don't think Oblivion (Shivering Isles excepted) really made much use of it all. For the most part it was just some stuff there in books if you felt like stopping and reading them. The past games in my opinion made much better use of the lore, especially Morrowind. The whole main quest had a huge amount of lore to it and discovering that, I felt, was really interesting.

I've never actually played very far into Oblivion, but from what I've seen, I'd have to agree that the lore wasn't up to the same standard as Daggerfall or Morrowind.

I don't have a problem with the Warp of the West explanation though. The way I see it, anyone who actually managed to finish Daggerfall deserves to have their ending mean something. :)
 
Joined
Oct 21, 2006
Messages
39,417
Location
Florida, US
To me personally its not hate. They can craft a beautiful world but its populated by stale npcs and quests. I'll admit I love story in my games and there not to great at that either.

All three of those together make the game boring for me and I always try to finish there games but never do. Fallout 3 was the only game I finished from them.

Hopefully Obsidian showed them an open world game can have story and better quests.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Oct 1, 2010
Messages
36,424
Location
Spudlandia
Better voice acting is something they also really need to work on imo. Maybe even more so than the writing.

+1. I got the feeling that the random NPC on the streets of Oblivion and Fallout3 used the same few bland voices as the imperial guards in Morrowind. That is except for the Whoopi Goldberg-sounding woman they used for the cat- and lizard races...
 
Joined
Nov 4, 2006
Messages
2,013
I don't hate Benthesa. If my field was anything related to game making, Benthesa would be definitely one of the places where I'd send my job aplication. I just hate some of their misleading marketing schemes, but thats the general problem with all bs marketing these days.

The problematic thing for me back then was that I followed Oblivion's development too closely and far too long. Obviously I was heavily dissapointed when the game was shipped as it turned out to be a lesser game compared to all the promises and descriptions that were given during development.

Although even if I had kept my distance from the development, it wouldn't have made the game any better. Maybe my expectations would have been lower, but the single biggest problem was the notoriously bad level scaling that destroyed the rpg from gameplay almost entirely. Exploring the vast world was fun for a while, but scaling ruined the immersion of a breathing gameworld. Modmakers salvaged what could be salvaged, but they weren't able to do miracles. The core design was so flawed and damaged that the game's many positive aspects such as many side questlines were burried under those flaws. Handholding feats, silly main plot and poor voice acting didn't help much either.


I wish I had your resolve, wolfing. I can't stop myself from reading every single article about the game. I've got Skyrim as a Google news entry and I read the updates daily. What I'm doing intead, to keep the game fresh, is not playing any other crpgs until Skyrim comes out. That way, I'll have developed a really strong desire to absorb myself into a game once it arrives. We'll see if my resolve holds out though. I almost reinstalled Oblivion the other day to play a new mod that features a new continent.

This time I've kept my distance and i'm not going to build huge expectations. Heh that objective hasn't been accomplished perfectly, but I'm trying my best not to follow Skyrim's news feed :)
 
Joined
Oct 19, 2006
Messages
2,469
I just want to point out that sales is never a good indicator of a good game. Wii sports, Just dance for example are proof that terrible games can sell well.

Yes, but sales are on the other hand not an indicator for bad gmes as well.

All we need to do is, "take it with a grain of salt". The world ain't black or white - everything is context-related, "absolute truths" are the exception, not the norm.
 
Joined
Nov 5, 2006
Messages
21,964
Location
Old Europe
For myself atleast my dislike of Bethesda stems from their Business and marketing practices.
I could list all the times they have attempted to steal intellectual property or promised none existant features but really its all very well documented and hardly a secret.
As for their games ive enjoyed everything they have done since Morrowind (atleast with sufficient mods) and im glad they are still making games.
 
Joined
Sep 30, 2010
Messages
213
Yes, but sales are on the other hand not an indicator for bad gmes as well.

All we need to do is, "take it with a grain of salt". The world ain't black or white - everything is context-related, "absolute truths" are the exception, not the norm.

Just like COD is the best franchise because it sold well right? Me personally I think there games are average at best. Because of sales the publisher calls it a good game. That helps to prove your point also its all subjective.
 
Joined
Oct 1, 2010
Messages
36,424
Location
Spudlandia
I wasn't really aware of this hatred for Bethesda, but this is the only general RPG site I visit. I remember when Fallout 3 came out (or was nearing release), I read some posts on No Mutants Allowed that were getting really upset by it. It all came down to it's not the Fallout 3 I would have made, therefore it's not really a Fallout game kind of thing. Its an attitude I find a bit comical frankly. I suggested they should just judge it on it's own merits and was chased out of the forums like Frankensteins monster with an angry mob of villagers after him. Ok, not really but I certainly got flamed.

I check the official Skyrim message board regularly and there are a lot of complaints about various details (armour merging is a big one for some reason), and that gets a bit silly and melodramatic, but I think most people will get it into perspective when the game comes out and still buy it.

Personally, the way I look at it is it may not be perfect but it's going to be pretty freaking awesome. There will be a few things I don't like, sure (auto health regen for one) but you can't have everything, no game is perfect, and no game can be all things to all people.

If there is widespread hate out there for Bethesda I can't understand it. Their games have given me hundreds of hours of enjoyment. I ate up Morrowind, Oblivion and Fallout 3 and will devour Skyrim. If there is a company that is deserving of scorn it's Bioware, but instead of hating them I have just written them off as being irrelevant.
 
Joined
Apr 4, 2009
Messages
526
Location
Auckland, New Zealand
Two things I'd love to see Beth do.

1. Hire some decent writers.

2. Stop simplifying their games. Fallout New Vegas is proof that you can try to make your games a bit more challenging without catering to the lowest common denominator.

#2 isn't really a big deal since mods can do just about anything in those games to make it more of a RPG.

However #1 needs to be dealt with. Every game that Beth has had an active role in seriously needs a decent writer. There are bits and pieces that are decent, but most of the quests/dialogue are horrendous.
 
Joined
Feb 3, 2007
Messages
5,347
Location
Taiwan
Better voice acting is something they also really need to work on imo. Maybe even more so than the writing.

I totally agree. You can get by with mediocre writing (even all those succesful 16 bit JRPGs had mediocre to bad writing) but once you have poor voice acting it emphasizes how bad the writing really is.

It didn't help that in Oblivion these poor voice actors were used for so many characters. May not even be the actual actors to blame but perhaps the voice director.

Anyway, I don't hate Bethesda. I hated Oblivion but I've gotten over it and have actually been playing it a bit in preperation for Skyrim. Not doing the MQ though, just exploring and raiding dungeons which is actually quite enjoyable. I actually admire Bethesda for sticking to what they do. Who else is creating ridiculously large open world RPGs? And the ES world is still a compelling one.

Like with Lionhead Studios (of Fable fame), there's a lot of hatred targetted at their spokespersons - in Lionhead's case, Peter Molyneux and in Beth's case, Todd Howard. I can understand that, these guys really tend to overhybe their games and because of that there is disappointment at the end.

But I don't think they're trying to be tricksters and manipulating the public: in all interviews/previews I've watched these two seem to show a genuine, almost child-like excitement over their games. And they seem always seem intent on their companies making the best game possible and outdoing previous efforts. I applaud them for their enthusiasm.

Their games aren't perfect, but the love for the craft seems to be quite evident in the final product. I just hope Skyrim improves upon Oblivion in a big way.
 
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
775
Location
NYC
+1. I got the feeling that the random NPC on the streets of Oblivion and Fallout3 used the same few bland voices as the imperial guards in Morrowind. That is except for the Whoopi Goldberg-sounding woman they used for the cat- and lizard races…

It goes to show how voice acting wasn't a huge priority in Oblivion when they use Bethesda's President's wife for all the female Nord voices in both Morrowind and Oblivion. Ok, she was TV's Wonder Woman in the 70s but come on, my 7 year old could probably do more varied voices and with more genuine emotion! I say fire her and fire the guy who does the Imperial voices (Mr. Burke in Fallout 3's Megaton) and good riddance to them both! :)
 
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
775
Location
NYC
I remember when Fallout 3 came out (or was nearing release), I read some posts on No Mutants Allowed that were getting really upset by it. It all came down to it's not the Fallout 3 I would have made, therefore it's not really a Fallout game kind of thing.

Actually, I think a fair bit of that was more 'this game isn't the game that the original team who made the first two Fallout games would have made' and that's somewhat valid, even if people don't always express themselves in the most productive way. :p As Bioware found out recently, if you do a sequel radically different than the prior game, you will hear some noise from fans of the original.

That said, Bethesda did remedy this by allowing Obsidian (which of course employs some of the old Black Isle Studios people who worked on Fallout 1 & 2) to make New Vegas. It actually uses plot ideas that were planned for the original Fallout 3 which never saw the light of day, so it basically is the Fallout 3 the original creators would have made more or less, just in a different engine.

Of course no one knew about New Vegas in the days leading up to Fallout 3.

But I don't think they're trying to be tricksters and manipulating the public

Much of the old 'Radiant AI' demo video was obviously scripted and yet was presented as though it were not. Now they may have genuinely (and naively) believed at the time that they would have a true version of Radiant AI equivalent to that in the final game, but I will go so far as to say that video was an intentional misrepresentation of what they had in the game engine at that time and they knew it.
 
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Messages
966
Altough I consider myself a huge fun of Morrowind, Oblivion & relative expansions, I can see why so many people criticised them! I too want to see somethin' different about the main quest (and the plot in general), the side quests, more difficult and tricky dungeons, and especially a full working combat system (the one in Skyrim reminds me a bit of Dark Messiah, did anyone play it? A very beatiful game IMHO)...
But I don't hate Beth developers for just picking up wrong decisions sometime: I prefer to hate something more important than just a videogame or who worked to make it...

Sorry for my english, I hope it'll be understandable :)
 
Joined
Sep 2, 2011
Messages
341
Location
Europe's Boot
I am grateful that they made me realize that exist such games and are called RPG that have some depth in them, as being causal gamer and in his history only having both Diablo games and SpellForce 1, be playing for first time Oblivion gold and only hearing about it be a pure luck I was converted in fan and realised I like this genre.
Resuming that they can turn causal gamers in rpg fans, but also I am shamed hearing and noticing how they turn off their fan base and change to other type of games, seeing imperfections witch are lazy and cheap decisions,for me it was perfect game before I was reading here about it and found out this video and I remembered the flaws then thought of how it could been better came to my head and reading somewhere that the Skyrim is the last game in the series, shamed that they lie be bringing the false argument that is the lack of money, since clearly hearing of them that they expand their work ground from basement and they don't hire decent persons who come to them and that I hear more about that they publish games and suit indie developer, lead me to think that is their intention.
 
Joined
Sep 3, 2011
Messages
168
Arena and Daggerfall are interesting to review, I reallized when I was playing them for the first time that I'd seen them before. What I was seeing was Everquest.

Verant borrowed so many ideas from Bethesda in making Everquest it's…remarkable really. That's how influential Bethesda was back in the day. Needless to say Everquest was a phenomenon, which later grew into WoW (details like publishers, developer shops, etc. are irrelevant because there are no game design patents clogging innovation). That's the trend vector that occured. So Bethesda really had something in the early years, and as graphics 'improved' their game model crumbled and convolved more and more into…oblivion (shameless I know).

Using the RNG for world generation doesn't work with 3d models. Bethesda had to 're-invent' themselves drastically, and the more 3d design, static set-piece design, and voice acting came into the picture, the less Bethesda was in their comfort zone.

In short, I think Bethesda's game model didn't scale with graphics cards. They were pressured to keep up graphically, but there was no way to do that with their old game engine mechanics, and they failed to adapt. All of that stuff takes money, and lots of it, because you need to hire artists and voice actors. Back in the Daggerfall days you only needed a MIDI sound designer, a few 2D artists, a writer, and a clever programmer. No longer.

You can't let a RNG build a town (or landscape) using high detail models, all kinds of collisions and disasters occur. So instead, on Bethesda's budget…you get a dead static world that looks pretty.

shamed that they lie be bringing the false argument that is the lack of money

It's not a lie. Daggerfall had hundreds of unique towns, each with dozens of buildings. This is easy to do with 2d rotating trees and NPCs (that always appear normal because the texture surface is orthagonal to the player's view) and RNG copy/paste dungeon and town creation algorithms. Nowadays they would need to hire an army of artists and designers to make these things by hand, there just isn't an algorithm out there that can render 3D environments on such a massive scale and have it look remotely realistic.

This is why WoW was built using a low-polygon 'cartoony' style, Blizzard was smart in understanding that their design costs would grow exponentially with level of detail. So they kept that factor low and controlled, which allowed them to spend money perfecting the actual game. That's where Blizzard succeeded, and Bethesda has failed.

Here's a good interview with Ken Rolston touching on some of these issues: "brittle production features"…"accepting conventions and limitations"
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jul 18, 2010
Messages
53
Corporate bodies can have BEEEEP ?
 
Joined
Nov 5, 2006
Messages
21,964
Location
Old Europe
Back
Top Bottom