I've tried, but I just can't stomach the older classics

I do replay the Goldbox games, Darklands, and Demons Winter from time to time. The games have simple menu-based interfaces and dungeons that are simple enough that you dont miss the auto-map. The Darksun games are also playable today, even if the low resolution is a bit annoying.

I still think the Goldbox games had a pretty neat and intuitive interface (everything was available in menus that you navigated with the arrow keys), and the turn based fighting is faster than in the Fallouts.

Otherwise I generally agree that old user interfaces can be too clunky to make a game worth the bother... My grievances are mostly with clunky controls (which exist in some modern titles as well) and a general lack of even rudimentary journals. I am too lazy to take notes about the first sets of isntructions given by the questgiver. Lack of automapping is only a problems in games like EotB with large dungeons with repetitive graphics.

GothicGothicness said:

I love some of the old classics for the C64, I do not think the graphics was that horrible as some people say at all. Especially bards tale and the M&M games, but there were also many other great C64 rpg's which remains fun up to this day. I just which my disk drive did not start to eat disks for breakfast

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When it comes to really old RPG's, I tend to look at MobyGames for which format has the best quality. In the 80'ies, Amiga and Atari ST often had the best graphics back then, making the C64 versions appear very chunky. The earliest PC versions were usually in like four colors (Cyan, White and Purple) which looked terrible. I did have Pools of Radiance on C64, until I drove over one of the disks with my chair.

For me it's no trouble, really. Well.. it takes about 15mins during which I have to get used to the clunky interface and pixelated graphics, but it's not that bad, and once it's over I'm always glad I did. I started pc gaming somewhere in the mid 90's. I never use hints or walthroughs.

Here's some of the series from the early 90'ies that might be worth checking out:
Dark Sun (2 games)
Dungeon Master II
Eye of the Beholder 1-3
Ishar 1-3
Jagged Alliance
Lands of Lore
Might & Magic 4-5 (+ Swords of Xeen)
Quest for Glory (the 2nd was recently remade into VGA)
Stonekeep
Syndicate
Ultima VII & VIII
Ultima Underworld 1 & 2
Wizardry VII
X-Com 1-2

There were plenty of good SNES RPG's from that era too.
Final Fantasy VI, which many consider to be the best of the FF series, were released 1994 on SNES with the title Final Fantasy III. Then Chrono Trigger was released 1995, also that one considered a classic. Then you have Tales of Phantasia (1995) and Secret of Mana 2 (1995) that received fan translations into english.

I'm sort of mixed. I replayed Ultima I and Ultima IV a few years ago, and had no problem getting into them at all. It's almost like they are SO archaic, that I my brain doesn't expect anything more than they are.

However, trying to play Ultima VI, when they first started using graphics that actually looked like isometric 3-D representations, as well as the Worlds of Ultima spin offs, has been completely impossible. I WANT to play them, but I just can't get into them. Same with Ultima VII.

I think the problem is that when I remember the older 2-D tileset games, that's exactly what I remember, 2-D basic tilesets. However, when I play the games that started becoming a bit more 'realistic' looking, I remember them awing me with how 'advanced' they were, but when I look at them now, they just look so bad compared to modern games. It really kills me too, because I know there are some real classics out there that I've never played and some classics I'd really like to enjoy the story of again.

blatantninja said:

I'm sort of mixed. I replayed Ultima I and Ultima IV a few years ago, and had no problem getting into them at all. It's almost like they are SO archaic, that I my brain doesn't expect anything more than they are.

However, trying to play Ultima VI, when they first started using graphics that actually looked like isometric 3-D representations, as well as the Worlds of Ultima spin offs, has been completely impossible. I WANT to play them, but I just can't get into them. Same with Ultima VII.

I think the problem is that when I remember the older 2-D tileset games, that's exactly what I remember, 2-D basic tilesets. However, when I play the games that started becoming a bit more 'realistic' looking, I remember them awing me with how 'advanced' they were, but when I look at them now, they just look so bad compared to modern games. It really kills me too, because I know there are some real classics out there that I've never played and some classics I'd really like to enjoy the story of again.

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I hear you, it's like our brain applies full anti-aliasing and digitally remasters our game memories
It's strange, the games haven't changed, we have. I remember when I bought a game I would open it immediately and start reading the manual. I started playing Wiz 7 after I read it and was salivating at the characters I'd use in my party. Nowadays I just put the CD or DVD in and expect the game to be playable without even looking at the manual (guess that happened at around the time they made game manuals just an installation guide, and moved anything interesting to the not included "strategy guide"). I tried playing the original Realms of Arkania games recently, and after failing miserably in my first attempt at a fight, I realized I really needed to read the manual. I swear I'll do it one of these days, in the meantime, I'll play a bit more of King's Bounty

Prime Junta said:

The first cRPG I played was probably Ultima III (unless you count rogue and NetHack).

I tried replaying it a while back. I gave up after about 30 minutes.

As you said, it's too clunky to be worth the bother. For me, the games worth replaying start somewhere around the Infinity Engine, and even so I haven't been able to get beyond Candlekeep with Baldur's Gate. (BG2 I did finish, eventually, and I loved PS:T.)

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Did you ever try BGTuTu (where you play it in the BG2 engine)? I tried playing the original a while back and found it a bit cumbersome, but playing in TuTu was awesome.

wolfing said:

I hear you, it's like our brain applies full anti-aliasing and digitally remasters our game memories

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Some similar techniques is actually available in emu's like DOSBox. The following screenshot is taken with a Hq3x filter (top) and scaled 3x (bottom).

JemyM said:

The earliest PC versions were usually in like four colors (Cyan, White and Purple) which looked terrible.

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You're talking about CGA. I had two games with those graphics, some golf game and Defender of the Crown. I loved the jousting on that game and the catapults. The rest were in EGA which was a lot better. Everything still looked blocky and cartoony (Sierra games) but EGA is still playable today, imo.

When VGA and especially Super VGA hit the market that's when graphics started becoming the focal point of games.

Edit: @JemyM I still like the bottom pic better for the nostalgia effect

JemyM said:

Some similar techniques is actually available in emu's like DOSBox. The following screenshot is taken with a Hq3x filter (top) and scaled 3x (bottom).

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Wow, that's pretty good! I need to read up more on how to apply those filters.

skavenhorde said:

When VGA and especially Super VGA hit the market that's when graphics started becoming the focal point of games.

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Ugly graphics could really pull down a game back then. There aren't many games that managed to get past that problem (the Avernum series comes to mind).

I was thinking about this when it comes to modern 3d gaming. When the 3d craze came along, and it was popular to release games with "3d" added to it's title, I usually responded with "oh no", because 3d in it's early stage looked much worse than 2d. There are early 3d games that look so ugly that I just cannot pull myself together to play them, like the Ravenloft series.



This is one of the primary reasons the second half of the 90'ies is a "black hole" to me when it comes to searching for forgotten gems. The other reason was the habit of pre-rendered 3d graphics in 2d and FMV movies, neither looked good in 320x200 or 640x480.

After 2000, 3d improved to the stage in which you could actually begin to distinguish what the polygons on screen was supposed to be. Character models started to look unique as their faces were fully modelled in polygons, where as previous games just used textures.

Polygon babe in 1998:


Polygon babe in 2002:


Still going forward in a rapid pace during a few years, we eventually reached the point in which the artists set the limit, not the engine nor the hardware. We have so many graphic enchancement techniques that most games doesn't even utilitize them and still they end up good.

I played the first Ravenloft quite recently. Really liked it, had this thick menacing atmosphere throughout the game. The graphics were fine. No problem at all. With that one I didn't even have to spend the 15min to adjust.

I would never even concider applying any filters or other mods that mess with the visuals of the original.

I don't know if I'm different somehow, less visual or something.. or if you guys are just a bunch of whining pussies with a 22" LCD screens and expensive graphicscards, but I can honestly say that when it comes to the graphics I really don't care - if the game is good.

I wouldn't be surprised at all, if the industry was just starting to do "remakes" of older games just because the graphics were poor then.

And because of lack of new and innovative ideas.

Remakes (and mods) are excellent excuses to replay old classics. In the war/strategy games genre they have remade almost all the classics from 90s (thx to matrix games). But thats pretty unique - i.e I cant recall a single remake of truly old rpg....lazarus perhaps but in that case I might still choose to play the original instead. I never played ultima5 that much - only scratched the surface with my friends pc.

Another aspect of playing old games is timetravel. I feel like tourist going back 10-20 years and then suddenly the game looks amazing even though it has no more than pixelated cga/ega graphics. Good douse of imagination might be a requirement. Not all people have enough of that.

To me old games are like reading good books. They just have pictures and animations as an extra and you can actually interact within it.

I have a hard time with low polygon 3-D games. I'd much rather play a 2-D game that was at the height of what 2-D is capable of than a 3-D that was at the beginning.

Zakhary said:

I don't know if I'm different somehow, less visual or something.. or if you guys are just a bunch of whining pussies with a 22" LCD screens and expensive graphicscards, but I can honestly say that when it comes to the graphics I really don't care - if the game is good.

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I do have a 22" CRT monitor with double 8800GTX cards in SLI, but that doesn't mean I am not into classic gaming. I actually have friends asking me what I do get out from playing all those old games. Just this autumn I ran through Golden Axe 1-3 on Genesis.

I have this ongoing goal to beat all lucasarts and sierra adventuregames and I have just the Quest for Glory series to go. I actually beated most wellrated non-sierra/lucasarts adventuregames from the 80/90'ies as well.

Beated Lucasarts games:

Beated Sierra games:

I have my PSP stacked over the edge with old games atm to Genesis and SNES and I sit down and play them once in awhile. 2 summers ago I ran through Final Fantasy VII-X2 one after another. Prior to that I ran through the Metal Gear Solid series, starting with Metal Gear 1 & 2 for MSX!

So no... I do not have much problems with playing old games, but I do have problems with low-polygon 3d in choppy resolution. FFVII, MGS, Gabriel Knight III and Silent Hill actually looks like crap, but I liked them anyway. Last or maybe last-last summer ago I ran through Alone in the Dark I-III, which was quite fun, but those games really look terrible.

zakhal said:

I have noticed the same when I have i.e gamebanshee "strategy guide", pdf game manuals (gold box adventure journals) and emulator all open side-by-side on my 52". Very handy.

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52"? Lol I didn't knew this even exist! I already have some neck pain with the 30"... But I need a 52"!

Zakhary said:

For me it's no trouble, really. Well.. it takes about 15mins during which I have to get used to the clunky interface and pixelated graphics, but it's not that bad, and once it's over I'm always glad I did. I started pc gaming somewhere in the mid 90's. I never use hints or walthroughs.

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Woa a game killer! Could you please play Citadel: Adventure of the Cystal Keep so you solve all the puzzling? It won't be long to play and that's a really cool game.

Prime Junta said:

The first cRPG I played was probably Ultima III (unless you count rogue and NetHack).

I tried replaying it a while back. I gave up after about 30 minutes.

As you said, it's too clunky to be worth the bother. For me, the games worth replaying start somewhere around the Infinity Engine, and even so I haven't been able to get beyond Candlekeep with Baldur's Gate. (BG2 I did finish, eventually, and I loved PS:T.)

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Well I did the same but in no way it's because of the graphics or because of map making, I just didn't found enough fun stuff here. Story is tiny, fights not interesting, exploration quite void too often. I played for example some Roguelike games that was much more fun.

fatBastard() said:

....I mostly play games for the experience, not for the actual gameplay... The reason I even attempt to redo a tough encounter over and over is because I want to find out what happens next, not because I enjoy it...

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Who that is weird, you don't take anything from game you couldn't get from movies and books but some boring gaming time.

I think it's time for you to move on, give up on playing game and instead read books and watch movies. That said where seems going gaming sometimes is on what you seem expect, not game anymore.

That's exactly the reason why playing older games can be an unmatched experience because too often the focus of modern games isn't enough on gaming. I think in Japan it's still a bit different but there's some gaming standard that are quite boring for people not formatted for them, like in JRPG excessive uninteresting random fights or crap music you couldn't shut off except by shutting off all sounds.