RPGamer - The First Law of JRPGs

Since JRPGs are not well liked on the site I thought I would post a new article from RPGamer called, "The First Law of JRPGs". So read on my fellow watchers.

I'm no scientist, but I know the first law of thermodynamics states that energy cannot be created or destroyed, but is actually transformed from one form to another. Over the last generation of consoles, I often heard people proclaim that JRPGs were dead. That statement always gave me pause, because I was still enjoying a good number of Japanese RPGs. If I was still playing these games, they couldn't be dead, right? I could have just dismissed those people as wrong and moved on, but instead I decided to dig deeper to determine where this sentiment was coming from. What I found was that while the JRPG was still very much alive, for some people it had changed into something they were no longer familiar with.

From the days of the NES and SNES, Squaresoft was a heavy hitter in the JRPG arena. If you say the name Final Fantasy, Chrono Trigger, or Secret of Mana, most people know what you're referring to. If you were a Sega fan, you likely knew of Shining Force, Lunar, or Phantasy Star. These early days of console RPGs were very formative for many RPGamers. Those who came to love JRPGs during the PS1 or PS2 era were met with more Final Fantasy games, but also series like Persona, Suikoden, Kingdom Hearts, and Wild Arms. These games are just a few of those that highlight nearly two decades of fantastic JRPGs.

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More information.

I've always thought that the first law of jRPGs is the specific graphics style.
Or, stretch it a bit, the first law of any j game.

Now I adore that style as it deliberately wants to be silly and cheesy.
However I, manga/anime fan, dislike if not hate almost all jRPGs. Because most of them are nothing but annoying grinders packed into japan style graphics.

Grinding, as a design, while a core part of numerous jRPGs, is not really exclusively jRPG "thing". That design is also present in other genres where designers have no ideas but force you into repeating the same thing over and over.
That thing has to die.


Games are supposed to be fun. If those developers can't learn what's fun and what's not fun, sack them and send them to work on any of these jobs:
http://www.cracked.com/blog/9-types-job-that-will-destroy-your-soul/

I always enjoy a good read on JRPGs, so thanks for the link. I don't claim to be wise enough to speak on this issue...I too was raised on the SNES classics, 7th Saga, Secret of Mana, CT, FFIII/VI, and so on.

There are times when I go back and play Secret of Mana, which I consider just pure joy. They definitely don't make them like that anymore...as to why they don't...that's a big question.

But as an aside, I did enjoy FFXIII actually, despite it being very tedious. Same with Ni no Kuni, a great game despite THE IMMENSE TEDIUM.

So I agree with joxer, I want JRPGs that remove the tedium. Let me choose random battle percentages and speed up gameplay like Bravely Default...don't make me grind.

Brumbek said:

I want JRPGs that remove the tedium. Let me choose random battle percentages and speed up gameplay like Bravely Default…don't make me grind.

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Why is it that JRPGs get a bad rap because of random battles, but you don't hear that same criticism about any other RPGs (Baldur's Gate, etc.)? I understand they use different systems, but are you really fighting more often in a JRPG than you are in a game like Baldur's Gate? I think it pretty much equals out in the end.

"Grinding" is a part of RPG gaming. You grind on a certain amount of enemies, you level up. Why is grinding okay in Gothic but not okay in Final Fantasy?

I don't want them to remove grinding, because it's integral to RPGs. I don't want to fight 3 million fights in the game, but I don't want to level up after 2 battles, either. There's a happy medium and most RPGs I've played have been good in this regard.

I've also noticed a lot of these have shifted to portable systems and it's the sole reason I've been tempted to pick up a PSP and DS. And there's troves of jRPG games that did make the consoles that he never mentioned either. I've yet to play them (but did pick up a PS 3 recently) for stuff like the Tales series, Ni no Kuni, Witch and the Hundred Knight, White Knight Chronicles, Disgaea, Eternal Sonata, Enchanted Arms, and Rainbow Moon.

My biggest complaint with a lot of jRPGs these days is the maturity level. I loved Final Fantasy Tactics and tested out one of the newer ones and was shocked at just how far the theme was toned down. A lot of them seem to be made for high school kids now which I have a hard time getting past, though Disgaea gets a free pass for the awesome mechanics and weird comedy.

Interestingly I've been playing a bunch of JRPGs lately in my PS3. Granted they're not as abundant as they were in the PS2 (and I have yet to see one in the PS4) but still. I basically like them because they're turn based (well the ones that are) and they came in a time where "turn based" was a cuss word in the PC publishers' mind.

greywolf00 said:

Enchanted Arms

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Very cool game. Funnily enough, there is some required "grinding" in this game as well. A few difficulty spikes where, in order to become strong enough to beat them, you have to grind a bit. Not much, but a bit. Still, this game has a very interesting combat system and lots of characters to collect. I'd recommend it.

Fluent said:

"Grinding" is a part of RPG gaming. You grind on a certain amount of enemies, you level up. Why is grinding okay in Gothic but not okay in Final Fantasy?
.

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The Gothic series did not have the type of grinding that you find in your typical console RPGS. And that's because most console RPGs have re-spawning monsters. Now, as in every RPG, in Gothic, you do have to engage in some activity (usually fighting) to advance your character. But to call that activity grinding in Gothic is mis-leading.

Wiki definition of Grinding
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grinding_(video_gaming)

You know, I think the grinding is a common staple in Asian games. Everything from Lineage II to Ragnarok Online to Final Fantasy all has this "you have to work hard to achieve" thing, and I think it's a carry-over from Japanese/Korean/Chinese culture. What I think has been mentioned earlier in this thread is JRPG-feel combined with a more western approach to leveling that many of us would find more accessible and more fun. And I think that's the trick.

FFXIV is this concept in action. *Everything* was ritualized in the 1.0 launch. Even opening a map had like three steps. SquareEnix's designers really had to step outside of themselves for the ARR launch, and for the most part, I think they did a good job...they essentially had to westernize their gameplay a bit to make it fun for most people.

Possibly the combination of JRPG style and western gameplay is a recipe for wider success? I'd personally urge designers to consider it.

To me JRPGs stand for
-Manga style graphics
-cheezy
-unrealistic
-because of being cheezy and unrealistic -> unimmersive (being it fighting against monsters looking like smarties, or summoning skyscraper sized gods to kick cockroaches)

I guess in the 90s there was also the difference between jrpgs=console=action/arcade and pc RPGs= turnbased, but during the years this evened out quite a bit. Having turnbased combat in lots of JPRGs (if it's not even a core element of these now like in RPGMaker), and having action combat (often with crippled console controls) on PC.

Fluent said:

Why is it that JRPGs get a bad rap because of random battles, but you don't hear that same criticism about any other RPGs (Baldur's Gate, etc.)? I understand they use different systems, but are you really fighting more often in a JRPG than you are in a game like Baldur's Gate? I think it pretty much equals out in the end.

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Not sure which JRPGs you're thinking of but, for me, the difference was so vast even comparing the 2 is disingenuous.

Aubrielle said:

Possibly the combination of JRPG style and western gameplay is a recipe for wider success? I'd personally urge designers to consider it.

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There is a game called "Grotesque Tactics: Evil Heroes" which is somewhat of a mixture of both worlds I guess. It's extremely cheezy, has some manga character art and somewhat feels asian (without the grind) but it was a fun experience, mainly because the game was a parody of other RPGs. For example one of the first guys you meet is the "holy avatar" which has…a very high opinion of himself.
Warning: I played the German version where the voice acting was big parts of the fun. I am not sure if the english version has voice acting at all.

Aubrielle said:

You know, I think the grinding is a common staple in Asian games. Everything from Lineage II to Ragnarok Online to Final Fantasy all has this "you have to work hard to achieve" thing, and I think it's a carry-over from Japanese/Korean/Chinese culture.

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It was connected with games completion time.
It was only when it turned out a big sale argument that those types of games sinked in the grinding feast.

Older games did not have grinding by standards of their days. In those days, it was expected to prepare (spend time killing enemies to amass loot to be consumed in a later stage of the game, grow stronger to face an unusually strong enemey), killing critters was also part of the D&D culture, there was also an interaction between exploration (mapping) and enemy occurences.

Then it evolves and more and more tricks to expand the play time were introduced: randomly generated loot drop, party member recruitment, easter eggs depending on length of time spent of farming an area etc

The evolution was sensible in the 16 bits era . Early games were light on anything grinding as they were continued from the 8 bits era then they included more and more grinding gimmicks to lengthen the completion time.
Suddenly, you were to find yourself drown with useless loot for example (a meaningful difference with the times when preparation was part of the game design, wich aimed at accumulating on useful loot. You might build up a lot but then as you moved through the area that required preparation, the stock was going down and down)

At start, the design was also lighter on quests that were embedded in the story telling. Way far less on grinding quests that MMORPGs are packed with (the bring one hundred rats teeth etc)

Asian game designers might have adopted grinding as a way to lengthen the game completion start but in early days, they did not. Their standards were close to D&D standards.