RPGWatch Feature: Worst RPG of 2010

Hmm… there were at least 3 different types of attack as I recall.

The combat in Morrowind left something to be desired, but I still preferred it over the "always the same level as you" fights in Oblivion.
 
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JDR13 said:
Hmm… there were at least 3 different types of attack as I recall.
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True, but the masters at Bethesda decided that each weapon had just 1 kind of attack that was ALWAYS the most efficient - and they conveniently made an option to always use that attack. Resulting in the exact same crappy animation for the entire duration of the game :)

The combat in Morrowind left something to be desired, but I still preferred it over the "always the same level as you" fights in Oblivion.
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I can understand that, but that's not so much the actual combat - and more the brilliant level scaling :)
 
DArtagnan said:
True, but the masters at Bethesda decided that each weapon had just 1 kind of attack that was ALWAYS the most efficient - and they conveniently made an option to always use that attack. Resulting in the exact same crappy animation for the entire duration of the game :)
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Well you know what they say about options. :)


DArtagnan said:
I can understand that, but that's not so much the actual combat - and more the brilliant level scaling :)
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I still like stat based combat in RPGs, although I admit it works better for ranged attacks than for melee, and a lot better in a party-based RPG compared to a single character game. For instance, I wouldn't have liked Deus Ex more if it was entirely based on player skill.
 
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JDR13 said:
Well you know what they say about options. :)
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You mean, let's just attack and do less damage just for the heck of it? ;)

It wouldn't be so bad if the option wasn't there, because then you might not know that 2/3 of your attacks were ineffiecient. But the fact that they decided to design it like that, and THEN make an option to exclude 2/3 of the attacks - should tell you something about their ability to design an interesting game system.

I still like stat based combat in RPGs, although I admit it works better for ranged attacks than for melee, and a lot better in a party-based RPG compared to a single character game
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I like a nice combination in single character games.

That's because I absolutely adore both the sensation of character progression, and the immersion factor of actually being the one doing the fighting.
 
DArtagnan said:
It wouldn't be so bad if the option wasn't there, because then you might not know that 2/3 of your attacks were ineffiecient. But the fact that they decided to design it like that, and THEN make an option to exclude 2/3 of the attacks - should tell you something about their ability to design an interesting game system.
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You mean "combat" system? :) Combat certainly wasn't the strong point of Morrowind, but then that's not the reason most people played it to begin with. I thought the overall game system was good. Better than Oblivion anyways.
Oblivion had a chance to be better, but they screwed that up with the level and loot scaling.

I agree it was a lame decision on the part of Bethesda to include the "best attack" option. The only thing I can do is choose to ignore it.
 
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JDR13 said:
You mean "combat" system? :) Combat certainly wasn't the strong point of Morrowind, but then that's not the reason most people played it to begin with. I thought the overall game system was good. Better than Oblivion anyways.
Oblivion had a chance to be better, but they screwed that up with the level and loot scaling.
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No, I actually meant game system - as that's what I think they suck at. Be it combat system, character system, guild system, or whatever.

I understand that a lot of people seem to enjoy their systems, especially the skill-up progression system - but I honestly HATE it.

But but, we can at least agree that Morrowind had SOME better systems. I liked the guild system better, for instance - and we certainly agree that the scaling system in Oblivion was horrendous.
 
DArtagnan said:
I understand that a lot of people seem to enjoy their systems, especially the skill-up progression system - but I honestly HATE it.
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As said earlier though it is a lot different in Morrowind compared to Oblivion. In Morrowind you barely ever gained skill points for using them, you mostly relied on paying for trainers. Risen used a similar system... honestly it makes sense to pay trainers for skill boosts. High-level skill training was VERY expensive too, so you needed to make a lot of money questing and exploring to level up.

Oblivion, in contrast, gave you skill points every 5 seconds. You can max out your blade and armor skills in no time just from walking around and fighting. They also capped trainers to 5 points a level, making them useless for extensive training in skills. On top of that they even made training super cheap, and money easier to get.

In short I liked Morrowind's skill point system but disliked Oblivion's. I am hoping Skyrim's is better, and the perks sound like a cool way to actually make characters different, so we shall see.
 
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DoctorNarrative said:
As said earlier though it is a lot different in Morrowind compared to Oblivion. In Morrowind you barely ever gained skill points for using them, you mostly relied on paying for trainers. Risen used a similar system… honestly it makes sense to pay trainers for skill boosts. High-level skill training was VERY expensive too, so you needed to make a lot of money questing and exploring to level up.

Oblivion, in contrast, gave you skill points every 5 seconds. You can max out your blade and armor skills in no time just from walking around and fighting. They also capped trainers to 5 points a level, making them useless for extensive training in skills. On top of that they even made training super cheap, and money easier to get.

In short I liked Morrowind's skill point system but disliked Oblivion's. I am hoping Skyrim's is better, and the perks sound like a cool way to actually make characters different, so we shall see.
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I should probably rephrase my criticism.

It's not the "use skill to skill-up" I mind so much.

It's the lack of the sensation of progressing. In both games, it wasn't rewarding to skill-up - because progression was very slow, and you hardly noticed the gains.

It's true that if you take a character with 25 in Blade and a character with 100 in the same skill - you'd notice a significant difference. The problem is that you don't notice it as you play - because the gains are so minor for each step.

Yes, you could pay trainers - but that was expensive, and even with significant gains - the response during combat was pretty limited. They should have added powers or feats at certain intervals - because such things are great rewards for the player.

In Oblivion, that was even worse - because you kept meeting enemies at your own level - so gains were basically worthless. They tried to compensate by giving you some "powers" for each 25 points, but it was just not enough at all.

I think it's vital to give the player the sense that he's being rewarded for this effort of focusing on key skills - and to have such a thing missing, is - to me - a sure sign of not understanding basic game design.

We'll see if the perks of Skyrim will help allieviate this - and I suspect it will.
 
I wish I could say I'm excited about the perk system in Skyrim, but I'm not. Besides being completely unoriginal, I think they're going about it the wrong way by giving you a perk for every level-up.
 
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JDR13 said:
I wish I could say I'm excited about the perk system in Skyrim, but I'm not. Besides being completely unoriginal, I think they're going about it the wrong way by giving you a perk for every level-up.
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Yeah but there are like 250 of them, and only 50 or so levels (going by the old TES games). Even if you get 50-70 of the damn things you will be leaving a lot on the table.

I'm really excited about it because it brings character choice back to TES. With the old system choosing to level up blades and shields did not hinder your ability to also level up magic or bows or alchemy or whatever. The perk system means choosing to take all the blade, shield, armor and armorer perks might make getting all the mage perks impossible. That's cool stuff if you ask me.
 
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I'm not impressed by the numbers. I'd rather they were more powerful, and you received one every 2-3 levels. Instead, we have a shitload of watered down perks, just like Fallout 3.

That's my preliminary thought anyways, but I'll reserve judgment until we know more about them.
 
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i hope the perks are more interesting roleplaying choices like "lawbringer", rather than the majority of the F3 perks like +skill, +damage, +accuracy, +whatever stat...
 
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Heh, I'm fine with slowly improving skills. In fact, that's how I prefer it. Creates a wider window where you have a chance at your enemies - at least that's how it works in lotro.
 
pibbur said:
Heh, I'm fine with slowly improving skills. In fact, that's how I prefer it. Creates a wider window where you have a chance at your enemies - at least that's how it works in lotro.
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MMOs are especially good at stretching out rewards :)
 
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Thank you. It was preceded by roughtly 10 minutes of searching where I could actually put it into …

It was nothing but a desparate move … ;)

And now you know, by the way, how and why my infamous nickname of "Offtopic" (or just "Off") evolved 10 years ago at the Larian boards … ;) :biggrin:
 
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There was a thread alive those last days with already topics about sells and console sells vs pc sells, it would suit there better... but as you can expect the title of this other thread has no relation with this sells topic. :)
 
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Yes, I have been searching this very thread, but to no avail, alas !
 
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