Dragon Age 3 - Tidbits from ComicCon

[DArtagnan]

Shattered Steel, I think it was called. Relatively competent mech game - though I thought it was a piece of shit

 

[Dhruin]

You didn't like KotOR?

Before I start, let me say I've enjoyed every Bio RPG to some degree or another - I just think they often aren't anywhere near as good as they should be.

Did I like KotOR? Not really. I didn't hate it or anything and I acknowledge the Star Wars "atmosphere"was pretty good but it either introduced or cemented a number of things I dislike in Bio RPGs. A random list (I haven't played since release - please forgive any memory lapses):

- Embarrassingly small areas with no exploration. Was Taris the opening city? You see a cutscene with sweeping vistas and traffic streaming everywhere. The reality is locations that could be as simple as two corridors. Seriously? I realise technology couldn't match the cutsene but Athkatla in BG2 was a far more convincing city.

- Small party, no real tactical positioning in combat. You could position someone to your hearts content - as soon as you switched to another character, it all dissolved.

- The introduction of BioWare's "rule of three", designed to keep things accessible. Three party members, three starting classes, three active skills at a time…

- The start of BioWare's inexplicable inability to do a decent inventory UI.

- One of those terrible tutorials - we're being attacked!!! Urgent!!! [Please open the chest to retrieve your boots]

- The big story twist didn't do much for me. Yes, I know this is just me. I prefer games that frame the player as an "everyman" and the game is about my journey, rather than a past that has nothing to do with me. Yes, I realise lots of games do this.

- The big twist didn't fit together with the design. So, I used to be The Big Bad, and we eventually end up the Sith Academy (was it Korriban?). I'm playing an evil character, so time for a path to open up where I retake control, right? No, it still plays essentially the same as a good guy, even though I'm at "home".

- Force Wave. No other skill required.

- Recycled characters. Bastila/Aribeth. Mission/Imoen etc. And why did BioWare like to make the game effectively about female NPCs? Rescue Imoen, redeem Aribeth, rescue Bastila.

- Swords were so much better than blasters.

Some of these are minor and present in many games but you get the idea. In a nutshell, the start of BioWare looking for their big audience, with simplified areas and the Rule of Three.

 

[Nerevarine]

I'd personally place Kotor in the "old/good" Bioware and replace it with Jade Empire as the start of the decline/mass market/casual direction (with the "great detour back to glory" being DA:O), but it seems I'm one of the few in this crowd that really loves Kotor.

 

[Dhruin]

No, I'd say KotOR is well loved by all but a few of us.

 

[DArtagnan]

Before I start, let me say I've enjoyed every Bio RPG to some degree or another - I just think they often aren't anywhere near as good as they should be.

Alrighty.

- Embarrassingly small areas with no exploration. Was Taris the opening city? You see a cutscene with sweeping vistas and traffic streaming everywhere. The reality is locations that could be as simple as two corridors. Seriously? I realise technology couldn't match the cutsene but Athkatla in BG2 was a far more convincing city.

I agree with you here, though I don't think it was quite as bad as you make it out to be. But it was quite a leap from BG1/2, though NWN already went a bit in a similar direction due to the tileset nature of the engine. I think the Xbox was largely responsible - which is why I don't really understand why they stuck to it after the Xbox was out of the picture.

But for some reason, it didn't bother me much. I felt there was an appropriate amount of exploration and discovery - and since it was the first of this kind of Bioware design, I didn't recognise the trite pattern when playing. For the time of release, it was really very pretty too. I loved the variety of the places - and thought Kashyyyk and Taris to be beautiful and "magically" Star Wars.

- Small party, no real tactical positioning in combat. You could position someone to your hearts content - as soon as you switched to another character, it all dissolved.

Yup, very true. The combat system is quite crappy and non-tactical. Not a big deal for me, as I'm more of a solo-oriented player with the party as a nuisance more than an aid. But it was relatively easy to control - and I found the various Jedi powers and abilities very cool and appealing.

Lots of toys too, with mines/grenades and tons of ways to upgrade items.

Doesn't improve the actual system, but it does make for some interesting mechanics to enjoy during combat.

- The introduction of BioWare's "rule of three", designed to keep things accessible. Three party members, three starting classes, three active skills at a time…

Agreed.

- The start of BioWare's inexplicable inability to do a decent inventory UI.

This, however, I don't agree with. It's not perfect, that's for sure, but if we talk about Bioware UIs from KotOR to Dragon Age 2 - KotOR actually has the best of the lot. It's sortable and it's very easy to equip items and modify them. I've been playing it recently, and given the amount of items/upgrades and the multiple characters - it's not that bad.

- One of those terrible tutorials - we're being attacked!!! Urgent!!! [Please open the chest to retrieve your boots]

Hmm, ok. I thought it was fine and very much on par with how tutorials worked in other games. I think I'm used to tutorials not making sense given the situation, and very few games manage to integrate them naturally.

- The big story twist didn't do much for me. Yes, I know this is just me. I prefer games that frame the player as an "everyman" and the game is about my journey, rather than a past that has nothing to do with me. Yes, I realise lots of games do this.

I understand what you mean about wanting to be the "everyman" - and Bioware are notoriously bad at letting you be that person. But KotOR being Star Wars, and the whole thing working so well for that setting - there was something very appropriate about the "epic" nature of you background and the twist worked for me in a very big way. I even had a slight crush on Bastila - which is the sort of thing that never happens to me in a computer game (and almost never in real life).

- The big twist didn't fit together with the design. So, I used to be The Big Bad, and we eventually end up the Sith Academy (was it Korriban?). I'm playing an evil character, so time for a path to open up where I retake control, right? No, it still plays essentially the same as a good guy, even though I'm at "home".

Never play the bad guy, so I can't comment Sounds stupid, but I'm kinda used to that for games that allow "good/bad" sides. Personally, I don't believe in the good/bad/evil/right/wrong way of thinking - so pretty much all writing is crap to me, if they try to handle things in such a blatantly simplistic way.

Guess I'm just adjusted

- Force Wave. No other skill required.

You should try Insanity and Lightning Storm

I don't mind being overpowered in games, as long as it comes later and you get the sensation of growing in power, and you choices having meaning.

KotOR was quite easy - but there are challenges along the way at certain moments. Worked for me

- Recycled characters. Bastila/Aribeth. Mission/Imoen etc. And why did BioWare like to make the game effectively about female NPCs? Rescue Imoen, redeem Aribeth, rescue Bastila.

I guess that's true. I hadn't encountered a "Bastila" before KotOR as I didn't bother with NWN OC. I hated Mission and I hated Imoen, so I'd agree it was a problem

- Swords were so much better than blasters.

Not true, actually. If you spec right and we're talking non-Lightsabers. Swords might have the edge overall, but you can get both builds up to similar power levels - if you know what to spec for.

Some of these are minor and present in many games but you get the idea. In a nutshell, the start of BioWare looking for their big audience, with simplified areas and the Rule of Three.

Yeah, I see your points and they're easy to sympathise with.

It's one of those things where the good parts overshadowed the bad parts - and at the time of its release, I hadn't recognised all those things as Bioware "blueprint" design patterns. Much of it was first time for me, and as I played the game - I had no idea what was overpowered or what was similar to previous games.

I only completed BG before, and since I always played with my own party - I never paid much attention to Bioware NPCs. I generally HATE having NPCs forced on me, and I also hated in KotOR when I had to take certain characters for certain missions.

But the Star Wars setting, the D20 rules system (with Jedi toys), and the overall production values with full speech (quite novel at the time) just blew me away. It was such a fantastic game when all elements were combined, with just the right amount of dialogue versus gameplay. I loved the way you could access terminals and "hack" around. I loved the way you could play some reasonably substantial mini-games at your leisure (or ignore them) - I loved the implementation of arena fights and all those little touches.

I was curious to hear your opinion, as you generally appear mild and tolerant towards changes in the industry - so it's sort of a surprise that you feel this way about a game like KotOR.

Thanks for the in-depth explanation.

 

[Dhruin]

Well, I've been ridiculously pedantic about some of the points. It's not like the tutorial is that important and you are right about the "everyman" vs the Star Wars IP. You're probably right about the inventory but I do remember hating it after coming from their previous drag'n'drop setups to this list-based version.

You're also right about production values but the full VO didn't really connect with me - I generally read ahead. It takes really great VO coupled with good facial animations to make an impact with me. Vampire Bloodlines was probably the first game I really sat up and thought "this VO stuff can be pretty good!".

 

[DArtagnan]

Well, I've been ridiculously pedantic about some of the points. It's not like the tutorial is that important and you are right about the "everyman" vs the Star Wars IP. You're probably right about the inventory but I do remember hating it after coming from their previous drag'n'drop setups to this list-based version.

You're also right about production values but the full VO didn't really connect with me - I generally read ahead. It takes really great VO coupled with good facial animations to make an impact with me. Vampire Bloodlines was probably the first game I really sat up and thought "this VO stuff can be pretty good!".

When playing it recently - I also found myself reading ahead a lot. We've come a long way, and though KotOR was impressive for its time, I'd say games like Dragon Age and Mass Effect are much better in terms of the cinematic appeal.

In fact, if Mass Effect had a better character system and mechanics - it would likely top KotOR for me. But I didn't much care for the simplistic shooter style - and it ruined much of my enjoyment. But it really was a marvellous game in terms of the cinematic appeal and a strong sci-fi atmosphere.

That said, I do have a special place in my heart for the fantasy/sci-fi hybrid that is Star Wars.

 

[lostforever]

- Recycled characters. Bastila/Aribeth. Mission/Imoen etc. And why did BioWare like to make the game effectively about female NPCs? Rescue Imoen, redeem Aribeth, rescue Bastila.

Because most of the players are male and they are more likely to care if the NPC is a female! It takes lot from a male NPC to make me care about them in game!

I have to say I liked Bastila and Mission

 

[Maylander]

I'd say most of those things apply to NWN as well, especially the OC. In fact, BioWare has only made three tactical RPGs - BG1, 2 and DA1. The others are relatively simple in terms of exploration/environments and combat mechanics.

 

[DArtagnan]

NWN is a strange beast, because it's not so much a game as it is a package. Some of the modules available are truly fantastic - with a LOT of exploration and I'd say great use of scripting. The 3.0 D&D system also gives characters unprecedented freedom to evolve and a staggering amount of toys to play with.

But it's true that they made some unfortunate choices as far as "tactical" gameplay is concerned, especially for the OC. Later modules and the HotU were better - but it's still far behind the sense of tactical gameplay in BG1/2.

I think the problem with the "formula" they initiated with KotOR - is that's so rigid and predictable. Once you realise how they design their games, you can predict almost exactly what each new location will hold in terms of structure and encounters.

The OC in NWN was very bad in that way, true, but I found HotU and usercreated modules much, much better - and certainly not predictable.

But they had an excuse, in my mind, because the NWN project was positively massive and hugely ambitious. They came rather close to succeeding given their goals, and I find it really sad that they've gone from that to these blueprint corridor games with such predictable structures.

But, oh well.

 

[purpleblob]

Bioware is... a very strange one for me. I played most of their games (rpgs) and mostly I had love or hate relationship with Bioware games. This is probably why I will hold some hope for ME3 and DA3. It may turn out to be love relationship (hopefully).

I loved BG2. I really liked DA:O/DA:A and ME2.

BG1, ME1 were meh for me and I found NWN and Jade Empire quite crap. I had a lot of fun with NWN mods but I don't give credit to Bioware since most of mods I've enjoyed were fan made ones.

And I HATE DA2. I suppress memories of DA2.

I think the only one I haven't played is KotOR. Heard a lot of good things about this one, but I'm just not a Star Wars fan.

 

[skavenhorde]

You gotta give Bioware some credit for making it possible for the mods to be created. I do not believe any other developer had tried to do and accomplished what Bioware did with NWN or you do not have to give them credit. It's up to you.

However, I do remember the interviews when NWN was being made and all the talk about how they were trying to bring a real roleplaying experience with friends to the computer. They succeeded in that and surpassed anything available up to that date.

I never did understand why people forget that because of the crap OC. The OC was secondary to what they were trying to do.

On a side note, I really miss those interviews when Bioware was still talking about bringing real roleplaying experiences to the computer. They seemed to like the genre back then.

 

[elkston]

I'd like for them to keep the changes to the skills & abilities they introduced in DA2, as well as the combat system. But then, wrap that around better map design, a longer story, and more hand-placed enemies instead of the "spawn fest" that some of the battles were.

EDIT: To be honest, I was hoping they would come out with a full Dragon Age 2 expansion, similar to "Awakenings" from Origins. Forget about these bite-sized DLCs and even DA3 for a while. There's still room for more adventures with better maps and stories in the DA2 framework.

 

[Drithius]

Not to be a troll, but I genuinely don't understand all the raving love for DA:O. To me, Bioware's writers spent an eternity fleshing out the lore of the world and then handed the reins over to others who gave us an extraordinarily cliche and generic campaign to test it all out. The saving grace of the game was the witty banter that kept me going.

I was hoping that it was all simply a case of starting the churn of new IP waters and that sequels would be better... but we all see how that became misplaced hope.

 

[kalniel]

You gotta give Bioware some credit for making it possible for the mods to be created. I do not believe any other developer had tried to do and accomplished what Bioware did with NWN

But other devs had already made mod toolsets available, and some had already included easier integration of mods into games as well. NWNs toolset was just slightly easier to use, partly due to the use of tilesets, and the scope of game mean that user-created modules could be satisfactory adventures.

However, I do remember the interviews when NWN was being made and all the talk about how they were trying to bring a real roleplaying experience with friends to the computer. They succeeded in that and surpassed anything available up to that date.

That is the key point IMHO - the limited-size multiplayer engine was good and it worked incredibly well for a party sized group and DM. That it then got extended to a mini mmo was by accident, but well supported by the devs post release - that support was another highlight of NWN devs - we world builders would talk to the devs - they'd come play on our worlds - and they would implement things we requested.

I never did understand why people forget that because of the crap OC. The OC was secondary to what they were trying to do.

But primary to what most people wanted

 

[skavenhorde]

But other devs had already made mod toolsets available, and some had already included easier integration of mods into games as well. NWNs toolset was just slightly easier to use, partly due to the use of tilesets, and the scope of game mean that user-created modules could be satisfactory adventures.

Toolsets and what they did with NWN are two entirely different things, imo. I've played and used mods/adventures for FRUA and Morrowind, but they are different than what Bioware did. No DM being a huge factor. Then you have even older games like Adventure Construction Set, but it's just a tool to make adventures with.

Don't get me wrong, I love Morrowind's mods as well as FRUA. Hell I still play FRUA and Morrowind to this day, but what FRUA did and what NWN did are two totally different things, imo.

What other games had easy mod integration or made it easy for the average Joe RPG geek to play user-made adventures? I'm serious because I may have missed a few, but I thought I knew all of them back then.....Well there is Darkstone as well, but I seem to recall that mostly being about skins. Probably wrong about that. It's been too long since I played.

I know my memories a bit fuzzy at times, but when thinking back to when I started modding/playing user made adventures I think to those three I mentioned. There was also Dungeon Hack as well, but never really liked that one.

That is the key point IMHO - the limited-size multiplayer engine was good and it worked incredibly well for a party sized group and DM. That it then got extended to a mini mmo was by accident, but well supported by the devs post release - that support was another highlight of NWN devs - we world builders would talk to the devs - they'd come play on our worlds - and they would implement things we requested.

I really miss that Bioware. Not this new and shiny improved for the masses Bioware.

But primary to what most people wanted

Then most people missed the point with what NWN was about.....oh wait they didn't because there is literally thousands of worlds that were created.

Just teasing, btw. I know the OC sucked, but I can easily forgive them that because they made everything else possible.

Bioware concentrated on one aspect to the game and did it right finally. Other devs tried making a great singleplayer RPG with a great multi-player RPG and ended up biting off more than they could chew. I always believed that you had to concentrate on one or the other, not both.

 

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Edit : Rather OT :

KOTOR is very difficult to get nowadays, since Activision appears not to have understood the concept of "budget releases". The only German-language seller on Amauzon Marketplace charges 49 Euros for it. Used 15 Euros and up, on Ebay Germany rather 20-25 Euros and up. In one rare auction recently someone paid 50 for it, used, I think I remember.

 

[Dez]

Alrik, the steam version of Kotor costs only 8,99€

 

[fadedc]

I definitely liked the original KoTOR quite a bit, but I didn't really like the combat that much. There were bits that were challenging, but I found most of it to just involve mindlessly selecting your party and clicking on the enemies one by one until they are all dead. In fact with many fights you could just go make a sandwich and come back when all the enemies were dead. This was a running problem in most Bioware games of course, In fact the one thing I really did love about the original Dragon Age was that almost every fight could be challenging and required me to think. That was certainly not remotely true in games like Planescape, BG, or KoTOR.

But combat balance aside, I'll always have fond memories for the original old republic.

 

[Dhruin]

I never did understand why people forget that because of the crap OC. The OC was secondary to what they were trying to do.

Mmm. I agree BioWare deserve credit for what they achieved but I think this view is a popular distortion of reality. The campaign might have been secondary to what they were trying to do but that definitely is not how they sold it.

I remember. I was doing news in those days, posting the previews and interviews.

Surely you can't blame people who believed the hype about the fantastic campaign and bought it as a SP experience? Especially when BioWare's own figures showed only 10% of buyers took it online.