Re: Voting for best RPGs of 2015

I asked first! ;)

I do have an answer though, I'm just curious why you'd need to pass the buck back quite so quickly without answering the question :)
 
Joined
Nov 1, 2014
Messages
4,778
Personally I haven't played King's Bounty, so from my side it was prejudice from what I have seen from the game. ^^

Tactics are the combats itself.
Strategy is grand scale decisions. Money Management, Expanding your troops, upgrading buildings, attacking at multiple areas at once (coordinating several units on the world map, giving them different tasks) and so on.

XCom is a great example as it has separate tactics level and a strategy level.

Frozen Synapse for example is a pure tactics game, same as Fallout Tactics.
Europa Universalis is a pure Strategy game.

Legends of Eisenwald has some light strategy parts, but the main focus is clearly tactics while HOMM has a big strategy part (upgrading castles, building together troops, having multiple heroes on the main map, ressources and so on).

And from what I have seen from Kings Bounty it looked very similar to HOMM, but I might be wrong there.
 
Joined
Jun 2, 2012
Messages
4,699
Strategy is grand scale decisions. Money Management, Expanding your troops, upgrading buildings, attacking at multiple areas at once (coordinating several units on the world map, giving them different tasks) and so on.

And from what I have seen from Kings Bounty it looked very similar to HOMM, but I might be wrong there.

Yeah, you're way off base. KB has no buildings you build up, there's no strategic significance to clearing areas and the areas are static, the enemy doesn't move around beyond a very basic roaming path though many just stand and wait for you to be in their zone of control. You only have your own unit to control.

Money Management and expanding your troops is not strategic but can be tactical, the only use for money is buying troops or personal equipment/skills so it's mostly no-brainer in that regard.

Imagine if HoMM didn't have competing Heroes, it was all just static monsters guarding goodies and buildings. Imagine if instead of resources HoMM just had goodies littered about. Imagine if HoMM just gave you one hero which went over the entirety of a gigantic single map with an interesting and traditional RPG quest-structure.
 
Joined
Nov 1, 2014
Messages
4,778
I don't agree with your definition about strategy, I think the kings bounty battles require quite some strategy. But even with your definition of strategy... well, maybe King's bounty is like that if you play it on easy, I don't know I always play those games on impossible, so they are not too easy.

If you play on those harder settings, you'll never finish it unless you have a grander strategy throughout the entire game, even more so than Heroes of Might and magic, which I also have played a lot by the way, you have to plan how to develop your character, how to recruit and form your troops, which order to attack what monster and how it is suited for your particular setup of troops. You need to explore as much as you can of the entire map and plan the route and order of approach.

You also have the different gems which is a resource you have to use very carefully, if you use them wrongly you'll never complete the game on impossible setting you have to have a strategy for that. You have to weight if the reward is worth it or if you should leave some gems instead of attacking the monster and so on.

Without a long term strategy you'll not complete the game on harder settings.
 
Joined
Oct 25, 2006
Messages
6,292
If you play on 'impossible' difficulty, isn't every game ever made which has a an 'impossible' difficulty therefore a strategy game?
 
Joined
Nov 1, 2014
Messages
4,778
If you play on 'impossible' difficulty, isn't every game ever made which has a an 'impossible' difficulty therefore a strategy game?

Well, I think the idea is that you should need to use this strategy even on Normal difficulty but if you are very good at tactical battles you might not need it for the normal difficulty setting. Normal difficulty might be too easy to appeal to the mainstream.

But the game is obviously made in such a way that you should plan your resources spells and so on, if the normal difficulty ruins that, then sure that is a failure by them.

You could say the same on heroes of might and magic on the easier settings in that case.. you can just take each battle without any planning or strategy with one hero that holds all your troops, if you're good at the tactical battles. It doesn't matter which order you build the buildings or which mine you capture in which order etc.
 
Joined
Oct 25, 2006
Messages
6,292
Well, I think the idea is that you should need to use this strategy even on Normal difficulty but if you are very good at tactical battles you might not need it for the normal difficulty setting. Normal difficulty might be too easy to appeal to the mainstream.

But the game is obviously made in such a way that you should plan your resources spells and so on, if the normal difficulty ruins that, then sure that is a failure by them.

Erm… so Baldur's Gate is a strategy game because you have limited spells? Because you need to plan which spells to learn in advance if you're playing on a harder difficulty? Because you need to plan the resources of your archers?

You could say the same on heroes of might and magic on the easier settings in that case.. you can just take each battle without any planning or strategy with one hero that holds all your troops, if you're good at the tactical battles. It doesn't matter which order you build the buildings or which mine you capture in which order etc.

Just because you make the strategy part easy does not mean there's no strategy, it just means you've made the strategy easier. Your strategy was to make the strategy easy.

Like the "what is an RPG debate", you're over-thinking the difference between what is Strategy as a definable computer game marketing descriptor and what strategy means as a word in the English language. Strategy games are games where you have active opponents, variable territory to take control of, different buildings to prioritise and possibly resources required to enable the buildings. Of course that's not a definitive or precise description of every strategy game, but it is a "you do get the idea, don't you?" set of descriptors.
 
Joined
Nov 1, 2014
Messages
4,778
Fair enough, can we agree to call it a RPG-strategy game in that case if you like this wording better ? So chess is not a strategy game according to you either? but a tactical game?

It is definitely not a pure strategy game, but it sure require a lot of strategy to win, more so than many other games I have played, even the ones defined as "pure" strategy games.

You'll probably tell me how bad IGN is, but they even classify it as a strategy game.

http://www.ign.com/games/kings-bounty-the-legend/pc-826290
"Don't overlook this under-the-radar strategy game."
 
Joined
Oct 25, 2006
Messages
6,292
I do not understand why the game is marketed as a Strategy game, even the original 1990 game is marketed as a Strategy game, it defies any kind of logic or sense.

In King's bounty you exist in a static world, no-one is competing with you. Like any other RPG monsters sit around in their designated places waiting for you to come and kill them. You do not gain any territory by your conquests, you are simply 'clearing areas' as you perform quests for the legitimate landowners, like any standard RPG.

With Chess, the board is the entire game, each piece represents a controllable character who's objective is to control a section of land and your opponent is as equally active as you. In KB you just have your main protagonist, nothing will happen at your eastern border while you are exploring your western border.

The individual battles in KB are like mini-chess games (but interesting), so I guess you could argue that the game has some minor strategy elements, but this is not the whole game, this is merely how combat is resolved, and pieces on the KB chess board don't compete to dominate territory, they fight like monsters do in any RPG (chess does not have archers and magic, etc, each piece is solely designed to dominate territory).

The game as a whole is primarily a traditional RPG, the only difference being that when your avatar gets attacked by monsters you are zoomed to a chess board where your accumulated army fights another accumulated army - which is not greatly dissimilar to individual units attacking each other in a normal RPG, one just has 'number of units' instead of a 'HP bar'.

Because the battles are about using units to solely deal damage rather than solely dominate land space the battles in KB are therefore more tactical than strategical, as they are over in a few rounds, there is no possibility of stalemate, and decisions are often reactionary rather than pre-planned. By becoming extremely experienced with the game, then you could pre-plan for every encounter possible, but as a first time player (the majority of gamers) the options for strategy are minuscule and I think if someone bought the game hoping for strategy then they'd likely be hugely disappointed but if someone bought it as an RPG then they'd not even notice any strategical elements.

I have no idea why people are marketing the game as a strategy game and everything you say can be applied to practically any game, even things like Tetras.
 
Joined
Nov 1, 2014
Messages
4,778
I think it all depends on how much you've played them and on what difficulty, I have played very long battles which remind me a lot about chess they have been 30 turns or more. On higher difficulty you have to careful plan how to protect your archers where to position each unit, it is very much like a chess game, so I understand why they category it as strategy, you also have the management of runes troops and so on.

Their are some major differences from normal RPG's for example your troops dies and you have to recruit new ones, you can have 1000's of units in one stack. You have to think of the longer terms, if you win one battle and almost all your troops die, you might not be able to win the next one and if you do not have enough gold to hire for the next one the entire game is lost. I really don't buy that this is the case in most normal RPG's. Sure it is a RPG-strategy hybrid but it is not a pure RPG nor a pure Strategy game.

I think your view on strategy is more restricted than most other peoples, although I can see what you mean.
 
Joined
Oct 25, 2006
Messages
6,292
Here is the list straight from our Database, so it might still contains some errors, from games released in 2015. All 105 of them.
In the list there are also Enhanced editions and such and add-ons. Should they be voted for as well?
Please share your suggestions on how to improve the list.

ID Title Date
966 7,62 Hard Life 01/10/15
2 Age of Decadence 14/10/15
991 Age of Fear 2: The Chaos Lord 27/03/15
826 Alphadia Genesis 12/01/15
769 Animal Gods 12/10/15
630 Antharion 15/07/15
728 Avernum 2: Crystal Souls 14/01/15
895 Barony 23/06/15
900 Black Closet 16/09/15
708 Blackguards 2 20/01/15
647 Bloodlust: Shadowhunter 21/09/15
910 Breach & Clear: Deadline 21/07/15
693 Caribbean 20/02/15
722 Celestial Tear: Demon's Revenge 19/11/15
652 Celestian Tales: Old North 10/08/15
646 Chaos Reborn 26/10/15
855 Chroma Squad 30/04/15
594 Citizens of Earth 20/01/15
967 Dead in Bermuda 27/08/15
613 Dex 07/05/15
864 Divinity: Original Sin Enhanced Edition 27/10/15
956 Dr. Dungeon's MADMAN! 16/09/15
667 Dragon Fin Soup 03/11/15
999 Dragon Quest Heroes 03/12/15
851 DRAGON: A Game About a Dragon 24/04/15
905 Dungeon Crawlers HD 01/06/15
891 Dungeons 2 28/04/15
845 Enemy 22/03/15
873 Evoland 2, A Slight Case of Spacetime Continuum Disorder 25/08/15
716 Fallen: A2P Protocol 06/04/15
860 Fallout 4 10/11/15
921 Final Fantasy Type-0 HD 18/08/15
1010 Final Fantasy VI 16/12/15
1005 Final Fantasy XIII: Lightning Returns 10/12/15
949 FIVE: Guardians of David 24/11/15
870 Gran Vitreous 20/05/15
906 Guild of Dungeoneering 14/07/15
751 Hand of Fate 17/02/15
717 Hard West 18/11/15
917 Heroes of Legionwood: Age of Darkness 24/07/15
807 Heroes of Might and Magic III HD 29/01/15
744 Highlands 20/04/15
857 Hyperdimension Neptunia Re; Birth 1 28/01/15
989 Hyperdimension Neptunia Re; Birth 3 30/10/15
483 I Shall Remain 24/08/15
703 ICY 27/07/15
1008 Immortal Empire 03/12/15
894 Interstellaria 17/07/15
561 Invisible, Inc 12/05/15
963 Jotun 30/09/15
877 King's Quest: Your Legacy Awaits 28/07/15
868 Knights of Pen & Paper 2 20/10/15
648 Kyn 28/07/15
514 Legends of Eisenwald 02/07/15
867 Life is Strange 29/01/15
544 Massive Chalice 01/06/15
727 Might & Magic Heroes VII 29/09/15
808 Mordheim: City of the Damned 19/11/15
651 Nights & Candles 12/02/15
1007 OH! RPG! 12/12/15
508 Pillars of Eternity 26/03/15
889 Pillars of Eternity: The White March, Part I 25/08/15
968 Rebel Galaxy 20/10/15
902 Redemption: Eternal Quest 28/08/15
945 Renowned Explorers: International Society 02/09/15
925 Royal Bounty HD 10/08/15
848 Ruzar: The Life Stone 02/12/15
551 Satellite Reign 28/08/15
677 Serpent in the Staglands 28/05/15
688 Shadowrun Chronicles: Boston Lockdown 28/04/15
824 Shadowrun: Hong Kong 20/08/15
861 Siralim 24/04/15
740 Skyshine's BEDLAM 16/09/15
883 Soma 22/09/15
742 Sorcerer King 16/07/15
832 Sunless Sea 06/02/15
849 Survivalist 30/01/15
835 Sword Coast Legends 19/10/15
969 Tales of Zestiria 19/10/15
856 Technobabylon 14/05/15
525 Telepath Tactics 16/04/15
975 Templar Battleforce 21/09/15
899 The Amber Throne 06/07/15
984 The Dwarf Run 21/10/15
892 The Enchanted Cave 2 03/06/15
1016 The Fall of Gods 18/12/15
983 The Fall of the Dungeon Guardians 18/10/15
720 The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing III 22/05/15
915 The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing: Final Cut 06/11/15
986 The Legend Of Heroes: Trails In The Sky SC 29/10/15
882 The Masterplan 04/06/15
1013 The Quest 21/12/15
673 The Red Solstice 09/07/15
518 The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt 19/05/15
958 Thea: The Awakening 20/11/15
987 Ultimate Space Commando 12/05/15
468 Underrail 18/12/15
952 Undertale 15/09/15
575 Vendetta: Curse of Raven's Cry 20/11/15
834 Victor Vran 24/07/15
820 Warhammer Quest 07/01/15
781 Wave of Darkness 05/11/15
863 Windward 12/05/15
540 Worlds of Magic 19/03/15
847 Ys VI: The Ark of Napishtim 28/04/15
 
Joined
Aug 30, 2006
Messages
11,223
Here is the list straight from our Database, so it might still contains some errors, from games released in 2015. All 105 of them.
In the list there are also Enhanced editions and such and add-ons. Should they be voted for as well?
This topic was discussed a few pages back if you want to take a look. Personally I say don't include re-released, or enhanced versions of older games.

As both Divinity: Original Sin & Wasteland 2 won last year already.:)
 
Last edited:
Joined
Oct 1, 2010
Messages
36,538
Location
Spudlandia
I'd say no voting for Enhanced Editions.

Maybe we could make a more sophisticated rule like "no enhanced editions of games released less than 5 years ago" so that "patched" games are excluded but completely new editions like Baldurs Gate EH or the Realms of Arkania Remakes can be included.
 
Joined
Jun 2, 2012
Messages
4,699
IMO:

1. EE, phone rerelease+3rdpartycontent*, DC, HD, ports of years old games and similar should not be in the same basket with new games. Never, ever.

2. Voting on a game should always be voting on the game itself, not it's season pass or some DLC - if there is a vote on DLC it should be a separate category.

EDIT:
*
- By phone rerelease and additional rubbish I mean BG EH.
- Realms of Arkania which is de facto remake and not let's add some silly sidequests rubbish and port it to phones should be voted on (not this year, but when it was released).
- Vendetta is not a new game, it's actually Raven's Cry Enhanced Edition and as such shouldn't be voted on in this year regardless of it's new name.
- AC:Rogue and Tomb Raider 2 are two games I'm not sure what to think of. Their consoleversion happened before new year and PC version will happen in the new year. Luckily these are not RPGs, but what if they were?
 
Last edited:
Joined
Apr 12, 2009
Messages
23,459
The only newly released games I played in 2015 were Pillars of Eternity and Fallout 4.

Both games offered a lot to enjoy, and I'd be happy to see either of them on a top ten list, but a year in which either one was GOTY would be a year that never rose above a B+. So I can only hope The Witcher 3 deserves the crown (and that the price drops enough for cheap bastards like me to buy by next summer)
 
Joined
Jan 30, 2012
Messages
1,193
Location
San Francisco
Guys, please check the list. What's missing and what should be removed?
 
Joined
Aug 30, 2006
Messages
7,830
Tons of games in that list I have never heared of. Anyways:

646 Chaos Reborn 26/10/15 - not an RPG but Strategy/Tactics
877 King's Quest: Your Legacy Awaits 28/07/15 - Cant say for sure, but isn't that "just" an action adventure in a fantasy setting?
867 Life is Strange 29/01/15 - Pre Adventure Game, isn't it?
544 Massive Chalice 01/06/15 - Not enough RPG to have a spot on the list
727 Might & Magic Heroes VII 29/09/15 - Does it have enough RPG elements? Didn't play it
891 Dungeons 2 28/04/15 - Does this have enought RPG elements?
808 Mordheim: City of the Damned 19/11/15 - isn't this a pure multiplayer tactics game?
856 Technobabylon 14/05/15 - isn't this a pure adventure game?
525 Telepath Tactics 16/04/15 - that's a pure tactics game?
 
Joined
Jun 2, 2012
Messages
4,699
I think Bloodborne should get a special allowance, it's so rare to get anything that's both quality and lovecraftian. I think it should have a "because we can" placement.
 
Joined
Nov 1, 2014
Messages
4,778
Back
Top Bottom