Cyberpunk 2077 - What to expect?

[JDR13]

I totally expect the Cyberpunk ruleset to be watered down a lot as well, nothing CDR have said suggest they care one bit about the D&D-like gameplay of the ruleset (with permadeath, a very brutal combat system with its very unique damage system.

It's not a party-based game, so I don't see how those things would be beneficial or even desirable. The ruleset will obviously have to be adjusted to fit more with a single character and first/third person viewpoint.

Cyberpunk is not what anyone be it action dudebros or D&D grognards are used to). It's all about ambiance and story.

If that's the case, I can't think of anyone better than CD Projekt to be doing this.

 

[JDR13]

Then you add Mike Pondsmith (the Cyberpunk creator who is rather involved in 2077 development) who said "And Grand Theft Auto 3 is basically cyberpunk minus the hardware" and how it's more about the right atmosphere in this interview.

What he actually said was..

“I played the original Deus Ex and enjoyed it a lot. Warren Spector is a master at layering complex plots and inferences. But Deus Ex always felt more like a conspiracy game than a cyberpunk game to me. Mirror’s Edge is great, but too clean. System Shock and Oni [from Bungie] are also good. Perfect Dark. Ghost in the Shell. Matrix. And Grand Theft Auto 3 is basically cyberpunk minus the hardware.”

Some other quotes..

“Cyberpunk 2020 is about key places, characters and technologies,” he said. “You have to have characters like Morgan, Johnny Silverhand and Alt’; they’re fan faves that have generated tons of fan fiction. You can’t have Cyberpunk 2020 without the evil ninja-corp Arasaka and it’s paranoid corporate heads. Places like the Afterlife; the Forlorn Hope – these are the sites where a million adventures started in so many player’s own games. CD Projekt’s team are fans, and they get that these things are important; that they make Cyberpunk what it is. They remember things I’ve forgotten about my own world sometimes.”

“In the end, there has to be the right atmosphere. All echoes and dark city caverns. The right level of engagement. A world of human scaled characters fighting inhuman organizations, using technology to level to odds – but not to become supermen.”

“I’ve seen a lot of the tools that CDP will use in 2077,” Pondsmith concluded. “There’s a staggering amount of potential there to pull this off.”

 

[BoboTheMighty]

Seriously, here and on other sites, I get the impression some people almost want some games to fail.

You'd think that AAA studio today looking at "hardcore" PnP" rpg game as foundation for their new IP, would be met with more enthusiasm.
How far are they are willing to go incorporate those rules we don't know...but from pure mechanics aspect it is certainly more envisioned as role playing game than any Mass Effect ever was...and the same is true from worldbuilding aspect next to any TES,. ( which, from first to last was always power fantasy with no limitations to player growth).

But we wouldn't want any of those to become streamlined at any point then and turn us all into sceptics, eh?

The kind with uneven standards.

 

[azarhal]

It's not a party-based game, so I don't see how those things would be beneficial or even desirable. The ruleset will obviously have to be adjusted to fit more with a single character and first/third person viewpoint.

I'm not sure what I wrote have to do with party or first/third person view.

Cyberpunk ruleset is two things: skill check for everything you do (combat, tech, dialogues, piloting/driving, even how well you dress) and its unique damage system.

Skills are the RP aspect of Cyberpunk PnP. There is no perks, no trees, no talents here, not even character levels. Everything you do is just a skill check versus a skill. D20 was based off the system used in Cyberpunk 2020.

The damage system has no character hit points per see. Instead, your limbs accumulate wounds which gives you penalties and once it get a mortal wound it is rendered useless and you need to make death/stun saves (unless that is the head, you die). The catch is that a mortal wound trigger at 12 damage and a 11mm pistol deal 3d6 per shot. It is brutal (wounds don't leave after combat, you can lose limbs, etc).

 

[zahratustra]

CDPR got recognition for TW3 but they are still in the "as good as the last game" ligue. Considering the team they've assembled, amount of money spent and the development time, I'm quietly confident that they won't present us with a dumbed down multiplayer FPS.

 

[JDR13]

I'm not sure what I wrote have to do with party or first/third person view.

Cyberpunk ruleset is two things: skill check for everything you do (combat, tech, dialogues, piloting/driving, even how well you dress) and its unique damage system.

Well you mentioned permadeath, and you're obviously not going to have that in a single-character game that isn't a roguelike.

As far as the other things, you seem to be assuming none of those will be present in the game for some reason. I would be surprised if most of them weren't there. The only exception being skill checks for normal combat moves.

D20 was based off the system used in Cyberpunk 2020.

I'm pretty sure that's not true. D20 was developed for D&D 3.0, and I've never seen Cyberpunk 2020 mentioned in relation to it. There might be some similarities, but I tend to think that it would be common knowledge if D20 was based off Cyberpunk 2020.

 

[Deleted User]

CDPR got recognition for TW3 but they are still in the "as good as the last game" ligue. Considering the team they've assembled, amount of money spent and the development time, I'm quietly confident that they won't present us with a dumbed down multiplayer FPS.

I wouldn't say it would be "dumbed down", I just think it will be just as "dumb" as the current mainstream AAA RPGs (if I had to guess, which I am).

But I don't really think AAA RPGs are "dumb", just very streamlined and accessible, and less complex overall in the sense they aren't based as much on pen-and-paper style RPGs (which is also my preference) and they tend to favor cinematic story and stick skills more. I still play them if they at least have some interesting RPG elements and put gameplay first over story.

If Cyberpunk does have an awesome pen-and-paper style feel to the rules and implementations that will be a great thing. I think we could use more big AAA RPGs that go for that approach.

 

[CelticFrost]

Seriously, here and on other sites, I get the impression some people almost want some games to fail.

I find it even more funny when one of the people talking the most has never played a game made by the company.

 

[CelticFrost]

I have never liked that sort of setting for a game. Though knowing how hard CD works to bring the best to the table. I expect it to be a great game and fully supported by the team to update and fix any small little thing right away.

I will give this sort of game setting a try once again just because of the company making the game.

 

[luj1]

I think they make good worlds. Like Witcher.

 

[azarhal]

Well you mentioned permadeath, and you're obviously not going to have that in a single-character game that isn't a roguelike.

If we are talking about an "iron man" mode that erase your last save and force you to created a new character. Yeah, I don't expect that to be in, except maybe as an option. But permadeath is a huge part of the PnP ambiance.

As far as the other things, you seem to be assuming none of those will be present in the game for some reason. I would be surprised if most of them weren't there. The only exception being skill checks for normal combat moves.

I don't expect the damage systems to be in has is. I can see locational damage replacing the limb/wound system, but I expect easy recovery of lost/damaged limbs while in the PnP you need to stabilize yourself via med skill or drug (damaged limbs continue to lose 2 point per day otherwise) than you get a surgery to fix the very damaged stuff (aka replacing missing limbs) and need to wait for recovery (no magic here).

As for skills, I expect a lot of merging, some being dropped and other changes to how they work. Why would they kept the vehicle pilot/driving skills if this is an action game for example. Then there are skills for singing, painting/drawing, dancing and playing music and a perform skill. There are also skills that are Science (pick one profession), Language(pick one) or Expert(pick one subject, example Expert on cars) that could have multiple entries that I can see being merged. There is about 15 social/dialogue skills too (excluding languages) from seducing people to just being credible (Credibility is limited to the Media role though).

If they make changes to the skills, that means changing the career skills list of roles (aka classes) as well. That is if they even have roles in. The way improving skills works in Cyberpunk, I can see them just going the Skyrim route without the perks trees but with stats (PnP Cyberpunk allow you to raise skill through usage or pay for training and I expect them to keep that,as for the stats I expect them to stay too).

I'm pretty sure that's not true. D20 was developed for D&D 3.0, and I've never seen Cyberpunk 2020 mentioned in relation to it. There might be some similarities, but I tend to think that it would be common knowledge if D20 was based off Cyberpunk 2020.

I'm talking about the skill check system used in D20. The only difference is what are th skills and that Cyberpunk use a d10 (skill max at 10) instead of a d20. It works the same way otherwise: [dice roll + skill value + modifiers (stats, penalties, etc)] vs DC (difficulty check of various difficulty)…but Cyberpunk had it 10 years before 3.0 did.

 

[JDR13]

If we are talking about an "iron man" mode that erase your last save and force you to created a new character. Yeah, I don't expect that to be in, except maybe as an option. But permadeath is a huge part of the PnP ambiance.

I don't see how permadeath would do much as far as ambience goes, but then ambience in a PnP game is entirely different. Regardless, I don't see it being of any use for a lengthy open-world RPG.

As for skills, I expect a lot of merging, some being dropped and other changes to how they work. Why would they kept the vehicle pilot/driving skills if this is an action game for example.

It's obviously not an action game, but I don't see pilot/driving skills being much benefit here. That would be like adding a skill just to be able to use mounts in Skyrim. It's probably not something that would add any significant amount of enjoyment to the game.

Then there are skills for singing, painting/drawing, dancing and playing music and a perform skill. There are also skills that are Science (pick one profession), Language(pick one) or Expert(pick one subject, example Expert on cars) that could have multiple entries that I can see being merged. There is about 15 social/dialogue skills too (excluding languages) from seducing people to just being credible (Credibility is limited to the Media role though).

If they make changes to the skills, that means changing the career skills list of roles (aka classes) as well. That is if they even have roles in. The way improving skills works in Cyberpunk, I can see them just going the Skyrim route without the perks trees but with stats (PnP Cyberpunk allow you to raise skill through usage or pay for training and I expect them to keep that,as for the stats I expect them to stay too).

They have to decide what would actually be useful/fun in a third-person RPG. Like the aforementioned driving/pilot skill, some of those things just wouldn't translate well from PnP to a crpg. Do we really want to need skills for things like singing and painting? I'm guessing the vast majority would say no. There won't be as many skills in the crpg version, but it's not because it's watered down. It's because they simply aren't needed or wouldn't necessarily be enjoyable in a crpg.

 

[Deleted User]

They have to decide what would actually be useful/fun in a third-person RPG. Like the aforementioned driving/pilot skill, some of those things just wouldn't translate well from PnP to a crpg. Do we really want to need skills for things like singing and painting? I'm guessing the vast majority would say no. There won't be as many skills in the crpg version, but it's not because it's watered down. It's because they simply aren't needed or wouldn't necessarily be enjoyable in a crpg.

Not talking about Cyberpunk, but an RPG with skills like that could be neat. I think Oblivion was supposed to have skills like that, such as Painting, Writing, etc. I had an idea that an RPG similar to TES with smaller scale skills like that could be pretty cool.

Also, one final note but the dungeon-crawler "The Dark Spire" made by Wizardry developer vets had a bunch of skills in the game like that. I'm not sure even what all of them did (they had Singing, Gambling, Equestrian, tons of weird stuff like that), but there seemed to all have different uses.

Here's a look at the skills in that game:

http://thedarkspire.wikidot.com/skills

Again, some of the skills have no listed use on that site, but there has to be something they do. The game is mysterious...

 

[BoboTheMighty]

They will definitely remove skills, classes ( like panzerboy) or even some stats ( like "cool") or merge several together.
Permadeath would be pointless…as for permanent limb damage what would force augmentation on the player, so no.
But point is there will be a lot more to building your character than simply making it a different type of killing machine…I'm guessing like in Deus Ex four main routes: combat, stealth, social and hacking ( which in this game is very important and represents an entire alternate world) with some auxiliary like repairing, crafting, etc.
Last few TES on the surface seem similar, but are actually heavily combat oriented. Cyberpunk (as I understand it) is more get in, grab what you came for and leave no trace behind.

 

[azarhal]

They have to decide what would actually be useful/fun in a third-person RPG. Like the aforementioned driving/pilot skill, some of those things just wouldn't translate well from PnP to a crpg. Do we really want to need skills for things like singing and painting? I'm guessing the vast majority would say no. There won't be as many skills in the crpg version, but it's not because it's watered down. It's because they simply aren't needed or wouldn't necessarily be enjoyable in a crpg.

The watering down is not because there isn't as many skills as in the PnP version. It's because most of the role/class wouldn't be able to be what they are supposed to be.

Singing and/or playing a musical instrument is a huge part of the Rockerboy role/class (aka the rebel rock star). The Corporate role is about running a business and investing in the stock market. The Media role is being a journalist. The Techie is into science and repairing stuff. The MedTech is a doctor (with no combat skills). The Netrunner is about being plugged in the Net and hacking stuff. The Nomad has this whole Mad-Max like gang thing going. Solo is like pure combat. Cop, Fixer (and Nomad) is a mix of combat and skills that would be merged in any AAA RPG since Oblivion was released.

That's all the classes/roles in the Cyberpunk 2020 manual. Thinking about it, I don't think they are going to remove the weapon skills, but then most of the classes don't have them anyway (you need to get them via pick-up skills).

@BoboTheMighty Cool is the governing attribute for resitting drugs. I expect it to be in.

 

[JDR13]

The watering down is not because there isn't as many skills as in the PnP version. It's because most of the role/class wouldn't be able to be what they are supposed to be.

Singing and/or playing a musical instrument is a huge part of the Rockerboy role/class (aka the rebel rock star). The Corporate role is about running a business and investing in the stock market. The Media role is being a journalist. The Techie is into science and repairing stuff. The MedTech is a doctor (with no combat skills). The Netrunner is about being plugged in the Net and hacking stuff. The Nomad has this whole Mad-Max like gang thing going. Solo is like pure combat. Cop, Fixer (and Nomad) is a mix of combat and skills that would be merged in any AAA RPG since Oblivion was released.

That's all the classes/roles in the Cyberpunk 2020 manual. Thinking about it, I don't think they are going to remove the weapon skills, but then most of the classes don't have them anyway (you need to get them via pick-up skills).

@BoboTheMighty Cool is the governing attribute for resitting drugs. I expect it to be in.

That's pretty much the point I was trying to make. They have to remove stuff that can't naturally transition to an open-world crpg. I don't see why most of those classes couldn't be included though. They would simply have to be modified enough to be able to survive on their own.

That's assuming CDP even uses a class system at all. They could go classless and just include most of those skills to allow you to build your own type of character. I would actually prefer that to be honest.

That's not necessarily watering something down though. That's modifying the system so it can be used in a different medium. If you want an example of something that's watered down, look at each iteration of TES compared to the previous iteration.

 

[Deleted User]

That's pretty much the point I was trying to make. They have to remove stuff that can't naturally transition to an open-world crpg. I don't see why most of those classes couldn't be included though. They would simply have to be modified enough to be able to survive on their own.

That's assuming CDP even uses a class system at all. They could go classless and just include most of those skills to allow you to build your own type of character. I would actually prefer that to be honest.

That's not necessarily watering something down though. That's modifying the system so it can be used in a different medium. If you want an example of something that's watered down, look at each iteration of TES compared to the previous iteration.

Ironically, removing classes is kind of watering down an RPG for me. One reason I really like Morrowind and Oblivion is that you could actually toy with different classes and create unique characters that felt and played differently for significant lengths of the game. You could still learn other skills, etc., but you always had the identity of a class as well. I think Baldur's Gate and D&D RPGs in general are great with the class systems.

Amalur did class-less while still giving a class identity through Destiny Cards.

Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning utilizes a unique Destiny system, whereby the player can invest in a skill-tree system to unlock various Destinies, which act as the character class system for the game.

Your chosen Destiny defines what sort of person you are, determining your base abilities and combat bonuses, as well as your overall playstyle. Unlike normal mortals, your Destiny is not fixed, and as you acquire ever greater heights of glory in your quest, you will unlock new Destinies to embrace.

The Destiny System is essentially an interchangeable class system. Players are able to put points into the three main ability trees (Might, Finesse, and Sorcery), thereby unlocking "Destinies" which add bonuses to that type of play, with many different combinations available. Once unlocked, Destinies can be swapped at any time during the game, as long as you're not engaged in a fight. You can also reset your ability points at a Fate Weaver and assign them however you want for a fee.

Special cards, called "Twists of Fate," can also be unlocked through gameplay, though these differ from destinies; they are instead passive bonuses that have no relation to the currently assigned destiny.

It wasn't bad, and it still gave you the class "identity", although they could be swapped in and out and reset entirely if you chose.

 

[JDR13]

Ironically, removing classes is kind of watering down an RPG for me. One reason I really like Morrowind and Oblivion is that you could actually toy with different classes and create unique characters that felt and played differently for significant lengths of the game. You could still learn other skills, etc., but you always had the identity of a class as well. I think Baldur's Gate and D&D RPGs in general are great with the class systems.

Well anytime things are removed for no apparent reason, I'd say it's being watered down. That's why TES is such a good example. That series is the epitome of streamlining, although it's still managed to stay fun for most people.

It's pretty hard to claim anything like that about Cyberpunk at this point because we don't have any idea what's being included and what's not. Hopefully CDP doesn't go too crazy with streamlining things.

 

[Deleted User]

Well anytime things are removed for no apparent reason, I'd say it's being watered down. That's why I used TES as an example. It's pretty hard to claim anything like that about Cyberpunk at this point because we don't have any idea what's being included and what's not.

I know, bro. I'm just rambling off-topic about class systems.

 

[azarhal]

That's assuming CDP even uses a class system at all. They could go classless and just include most of those skills to allow you to build your own type of character. I would actually prefer that to be honest.

I found an old interview last night (from when they first announced the game) where they said they were going with classes/roles. Classes have one unique skill that other classes can't use. They probably want that one special thing to be in.

Although, some of them are kinda OP. Example, a Rockerboy is able to incite 200+ people (minimum is 10 people, but 200 is at level 1 of the skill) to start a riot or do whatever they want. With the skill maxed they can raise entire nations against each others…and you can start with it maxed.

That's not necessarily watering something down though. That's modifying the system so it can be used in a different medium. If you want an example of something that's watered down, look at each iteration of TES compared to the previous iteration.

Funny how you are talking about TES, because I'm expecting Cyberpunk 2077 to be around Skyrim level sans perks/health/magicka/stamina/levels (which is basically where The Witcher 3 stand anyway). Although, a part of me wouldn't be surprised to see perks and skill trees because they are trendy but that wouldn't be Cyberpunk ruleset anymore.