Black Geyser - Gameplay Video & Kickstarter Soon

Morrandir: thank you. The website contains an "at least" question, and the current one is "min - max". But whichever you have answered - thank you again.

Ripper: substitute amateurism for "indie studio". We are not Ubisoft but a small studio founded by RPG enthusiasts, artists and software engineers. Our budget and human resources were limited. In past 1,5 years, we had to choose whether we pay developers to develop the game and secure investor money at the same time, or we pay PR and keep posting regular, shiny updates each month. :) So I don't know how this makes the project less likely to succeed on Kickstarter. If enough people spread the word, we can make this Kickstarter succeed. But only if ALL of us spreads the word.

Moreover, there is a considerable fan base who is waiting for this game. We received lots of emails saying "Do the Kickstater already, I can't wait!". Some person on the Pillars of Eternity steam forum wants to pledge via bank transfer. And so on and so forth.
 
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Ripper said:
I'd take a step back, and have a bit of a rethink before launch.
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Thank you for your feedback. Your post is a bit vague to me though. What would you rethink in particular if you were the developer? :)
 
Rothgor said:
Thank you for your feedback. Your post is a bit vague to me though. What would you rethink in particular if you were the developer? :)
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Yes, and I'm sorry it's a bit vague, because it's not really based on any kind of objective argument. It's just based on subtleties and instinct, and feel free to disregard my impression. All I'm saying is that, in this guy's judgment, the offering isn't quite right yet, and I wouldn't bet on it. It's kind of like an A&R man listening to a band, and deciding to pass (which is, of course, sometimes dead wrong) . It's hard to pin down exactly what you'd do differently, but you know when something is ready to break, and when it isn't. It's really not that I want you to fail.
 
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I agree with Ripper's assessment - probably should release more information regarding your game and the state of your company before launching a Kickstarter.

From my point of view:

There are other games that are in similar vein as your game, such as Pathfinder: Kingmaker and Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire. One will be releases next month while the other I'm participating in Beta testing (i.e. already enjoying the game). Both games seens huge in content, they will keep me occupied for a long time.

Now, your game offerings are 1. A game like BG, 2. This 'greed' system is a standout feature. I already have BG like games to keep me occupied for quite a long while. In addition, without more in-depth explanation, this greed system sounds just annoying and pointless. Hence, won't be interested until I see more in game videos and detailed information/explanation of how this greed system works and fits well with the whole game mechanic.

Also, you don't have any track records. You went silent for a long time then came back recently to say "everything is going well, no need to worry!". How can I trust that? Clearly, you went into hiatus due to financial issues and what not - how can you make me believe it won't happen during your development cycle again. If I want to make an investment, I want some reassurance I will end up getting a proposed product in decent quality and in reasonable timeframe.

I had my doubts with Owlcat games earlier but with Chris Avellone joining the team (a well known figure) and continuous streams of detailed updates, I was convinced this is legit and worthwhile.

Do you have all materials ready to show us once the kickstarter is launched?

If you want your KS campaign to succeed, you should probably think of these things. Otherwise.. its a clear sign of ammatuerism.

Edit: typos everywhere.. cbf fixing it all since Im posting this using the phone
 
Ripper, thanks for clarification. :)

Purplebob: I understand your high standards and that's how it should be. I'm afraid we don't have Chris Avellone in the team, nor we are Obsidian Entertainment. Your two examples were either about a big studio (Obsidian) or a project which you didn't really trust till a world-famous writer joined them. So I get your point that you expect nearly finished materials before the Kickstarter, but if we had them, then we wouldn't need our investors and this Kickstarter in the first place. So, again, I understand your requirements and I agree that you find such Kickstarters risky. We have no way to suit everyone's expectations but we often try to.

As someone said here already: sometimes a feature is announced but not explained in its details comprehensively. Obsidian does this too. But Obsidian and/or Chris Avellone means they don't need to explain. I understand this too.
 
If I want to make an investment, I want some reassurance I will end up getting a proposed product in decent quality and in reasonable timeframe.
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On a side note: the game has a working prototype (actually, much more, but I can't say more about that now). That's why we have received several inquiries from publishers, actually.
 
I understand your high standards and that's how it should be. I'm afraid we don't have Chris Avellone in the team, nor we are Obsidian Entertainment. Your two examples were either about a big studio (Obsidian) or a project which you didn't really trust till a world-famous writer joined them. So I get your point that you expect nearly finished materials before the Kickstarter, but if we had them, then we wouldn't need our investors and this Kickstarter in the first place. So, again, I understand your requirements and I agree that you find such Kickstarters risky. We have no way to suit everyone's expectations but we often try to.
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But both companies are your competitors in the market, no?

Perhaps I need to clarify myself better but Chris Avallone joining Owlcat team wasn't a decision making factor to me. It helped, no doubt about it, when someone of that high profile joins the team, I am a little more reassured Owlcat won't just call out the company has dissolved and disappear.

But it was Owlcat's continuous streams of detailed kickstarter updates that convinced me this is really worth my time - and I hope you will have enough information ready to convince me your game is worthwhile once the KS is launched. No more of "we can't reveal the information but we need your money".

Also, if I recall correctly, PoE1 was no where near finished when Obsidian launched their KS but their pitch was solid enough to suceed in KS. I never said I expect near completed material to be shown in KS.
 
Ripper said:
I'd take a step back, and have a bit of a rethink before launch.
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purpleblob said:
If you want your KS campaign to succeed, you should probably think of these things. Otherwise.. its a clear sign of ammatuerism.
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You both have good points as I have been burned by a few kickstarter games. One example is a game called project-resurgence which had a troubled development cycle.

Link- https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/nectargamestudios/project-resurgence/posts/1954263
It has been extremely difficult for me to write this update. I’ve tried, and I just couldn’t get the words to come out. Emotionally, I’ve fallen into one of the darkest places in my life, and I’m just now digging myself out and starting to feel ok again. As the title states, we’ve run out of money and been forced to dissolve Nectar and put Resurgence on indefinite hiatus.
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Another game that still pisses me off was called The Mandate. They didn't even communicate on why they failed. Just took money then made no excuse or explanation.

The last update was in 2016 about securing more funding.

Link - https://www.gamewatcher.com/news/201…ems-to-be-dead

They left the few mods on the forum who are not affiliated with them explain unofficially when the website shut down. Heck the CEO bailed a year before the announcement.

Link - https://www.reddit.com/r/TheMandate/

So there you have two examples on how projects fail.
 
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I understand these points, but do you guys realize that you talk about failed Kickstarter projects, while Black Geyser: Couriers of Darkness had (now solved) financial difficulties before the Kickstarter? That so far, we asked exactly 0 (zero) from anyone and used exactly 0 (zero) money of any individual backer. The project was self-funded (plus private company investors). That's a little bit difference. In other words, we brought our studio to a financially stable state before we would ask anyone's money (Kickstarter) and developed a lot content for the game as well (even if a lot of game art and some other aspects are still missing or need to be balanced). I think this is the most that an indie studio can do.

Sure, former financial issues can be an indicator for future as well, but financial problems can appear for any company. We all know how Obsidian solved its financial crisis - many years ago - by getting hired by a Russian company for developing a game for them. And the chances of Obsidian (!) finding money was obviously greater compared to smaller indie studios.

Also, if I recall correctly, PoE1 was no where near finished when Obsidian launched their KS but their pitch was solid enough to suceed in KS. I never said I expect near completed material to be shown in KS.
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This may not be the best example here. If I remember correctly, they did not tell anything about particular features of their upcoming game. It's not that they didn't explain their game's features: they didn't reveal any well-defined features except general stuff. General things. And talked really a lot about their past. (If I remember their video wrong, please correct me.) And yes this made them succeed. The problem of new gaming studios is a chicken & egg problem. 99% of studios cannot get funding without having a previous successful game or a famous person giving his or her face to your project. But how do you have a previous game when you cannot get funding for the first. This isn't my opinion, this is a known fact in the industry. So, we're grateful to our private investors who have funded our development so far.

To summarize (if I remember correctly the consensus of experts), Obsidian's pitch on KS was this: "We made awesome games before." :)

As a player (and as a KS backer) in the past, for the above reasons, I always was less strict with indie studios as long as they looked genuine. Even before I joined the Black Geyser guys, I found them genuine when looking at their website. But we are all different.
 
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I overlooked a point in couchpotato's post, sorry. My bad. It doesn't change anything on my previous post, but for the sake of correctness: I see your examples raised their goal on KS but then never got finished. So, eventually, they failed. This is where I say that if I was backer, it would actually impress (and not reject) me that a project did not launch its Kickstarter before securing the necessary money for their studio from investors. In other words, it didn't ask money on Kickstarter to be able to continue development, but to be able to cross the finish line :) (As it is with Black Geyser, fortunately.)

There is always a risk factor with any Kickstarter project. The risk factor is higher for small studio than for big ones such as Obsidian or inXile. The risk factor is always higher when a studio pitches an idea instead of a working game version. So, every individual should ask himself/herself, what risks he or she feels regading Black Geyser: Couriers of Darkness and then decide if the risks are okay for him/her or not. :)
 
One point brought up from Resurgence was the developer was not good with handling the financial side of the business as he explained in the link.

You see that a lot in game development as one side is good at the other, and not both. It's necessary to have backup plans, and have someone good with fiances.

On the other hand I have seen a few games funded that were just plain fraudulent also. I still think crowd-funding is still a good idea for small studios.
 
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Rothgor said:
In past 1,5 years, we had to choose whether we pay developers to develop the game and secure investor money at the same time, or we pay PR and keep posting regular, shiny updates each month.
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This is something I'll never understand - why projects don't just post small, consistent updates. You don't need to pay for a PR blagger to make them "shiny". Just let people know you're still alive and working every month, and it would make all the difference in the world! No one's going to convince me that it's impossible to find time to write a couple of paragraphs every few weeks.
 
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Ripper said:
This is something I'll never understand - why projects don't just post small, consistent updates. You don't need to pay for a PR blagger to make them "shiny". Just let people know you're still alive and working every month, and it would make all the difference in the world! No one's going to convince me that it's impossible to find time to write a couple of paragraphs every few weeks.
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I understand your point. Black Geyser situation was a bit special due to the company structure, but these special issues have been solved in the meantime. I can't really tell about it, but to put it simple, developers (who were paid & active all the time) weren't permitted to post website news, and the owners were busy with negotiations with investors. It's all past now. And the most important: the founders have kept majority control (= total control for key decisions) over the company and thus the project. At the same time, we secured significant funds.

Couchpotato said:
One point brought up from Resurgence was the the developer was not good with handling the financial side of the business as he explained in the link.

You see that a lot in game development as one side is good at the other, and not both. It's necessary to have backup plans, and have someone good with fiances.
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Absolutely. Risk management is a must. We have an agreement with our private investors to handle the costs of unexpected events until the release of the game. Having said that, some of our private investors are not coming from gaming world but from business IT (ERP and so on), and now they require a successful Kickstarter as a proof that there is public interest for this game. Once KS is funded, we will secure additional funds from them.
 
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Very good points, Ripper. Having said that, let me point out two things (they are general - I'm not saying that they apply to your example project):

1) Financing and handling a company (even with 15 people) is significantly harder and has much more complex challenges compared to a one-man team.
2) Updates and communication with the public is a must. If they have given any money to a project (not the case yet with Black Geyser), then it is required and mandatory, by all means. Having said that, regular updates are "only" communication and there is nothing that proves for 100% that it's true what the project owner is writing in the update. Sure, gameplay videos and materials can prove the progress. But then, in this respect, there is no difference compared to a studio that posts updates less often but with major, bigger-step improvements (with proofs such as videos). Strictly if you're looking only at the current status of the project and not the frequency of the updates beforehand. So, there should be balance between the work done and the public communication. And even in this case, it still comes down to how much you trust the developers' word. Regular updates help on that but they mean no guarantee.

Rhetorical question coming. When a game is released, which would you prefer more? A buggy game whose developers posted regular, shiny updates, or a bug-free, quality product which had not so many updates? Yeah we all know the answer: we want both. And that's how it should be.

Again, these were just two additions to a point - to your point - that is absolutely valid & true. :) A project that received even a cent from individual backers has to function perfectly transparently and update its backers regularly.
 
Rhetorical question from me in response:

If you can't secure your KS funding (subsequently, funding from your investor), can you release anything?

Perhaps, you should think about releasing more information via regular updates to reassure potential investors to enable you to finish developing the game? (Rather than trying desperately fight back to every feedback we provide? Surely, if you have time to argue with us on forums for every point, you have time for regular game updates).
 
Every feedback is welcome, and is collected and forwarded to the decision makers.

This doesn't mean we are not going to clear up misunderstandings and correct factual errors.

It's a pity that you feel that I'm fighting back. We're most grateful for all constructive feedback. I'm happy to be here - some people indicated above that they actually welcome the presence of a Black Geyser team member in this topic. So, everyone, feel to ask questions and I'll do my best to answer.
 
Pity indeed, clear communication and planning is a must for KS which is lacking from your team from evidence so far.

Glad to hear feedback is forwarded to decision makers though.

Best of luck to your team.
 
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