Gamasutra - Against the Death Penalty

Yeah, most of the people I know who have played DS, and I mean *really* played it, had nothing but positive things to say about it. I rented it for a few days and was very impressed by the atmosphere.

I wasn't surprised though, because I had really enjoyed several games by From Software in the past. They've been doing RPGs for a long time, and their King's Field series was one of the first to feature an open 3D world on consoles.

I've seen some sources refer to Demon's Souls as a spiritual successor to King's Field, although I personally didn't think it was very similar.

I haven't played any of their previous games - AFAIK.

I imported Demon's Souls from Asia - based on a lot of positive feedback.

I played it for a few months, but gave it up - as I didn't really have the time and "peace" to dedicate myself - and I made the mistake of looking up ideal loot configurations - and spoiled the game by knowing too much.

I wasn't a big fan of the weird PvP implementation - and I'd have preferred a more traditional way of joining up with people. But it was very interesting in how it was completely different from other games - and I might have appreciated it more if I'd bothered to learn the intricacies.
 
Agree largely that the Vita chambers in Bioshock were much worse. However, in some ways it was still better than death/reload - making you to accept at least a minor penalty on death. Could have been handled much better, of course, I especially missed the need to have to activate the chambers, which was IIRC often tied to exploration and even to nice "subplots" or "puzzles" in SS.
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
3,508
What's so bad about death/reload?

I mean, unless you can't avoid dying by playing smart - I think it's a pretty good way of dissuading careless play.

I'm more annoyed with having to see cutscenes over again, or having to retread a lot of ground to get to the same place.

Which is why a good efficient quick-save system is one of the best ways to handle those cases - I think.

But the key is that the game should be fair, and should allow the player to survive by being smart and careful.

I hate games that keep pouring new surprises or silly gimmicky mechanics at you - so you can't prepare. Just make the core gameplay challenging and complex/interesting - and give the player a fair introduction to new elements.

At least, that seems to work best for me.

But I'm not completely against respawn systems - as long as they make good sense within the game world.
 
Well, of course we are all used to it, but ultimately it is a really poor mechanic if you think about it. The only consequence of death is how long you have to replay since your last save (and in most games you control that yourself). So there is really no reward system for carful play and roleplaying risk-awareness, which I think can really add to atmosphere and increases the complexity of decision making with regard to encounters. In M&B (especially when played in save-on-quitting mode), you really begin to evaluate the armies of your adversaries carefully. In the typical FPS or RPG, you typically rush into the engagement, and then reconsider your strategy or your options if that fails.
Thats not per se "bad", but I sure find it refereshing if games try something different every now and then, at least if the focus is on actually the feedback mechanisms for "failure" (which may be combat death, but really the philosophy also extends to failing quests etc., I like it when there is specific consequences, that are interesting enough to want to keep playing regardless).
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
3,508
Well, of course we are all used to it, but ultimately it is a really poor mechanic if you think about it. The only consequence of death is how long you have to replay since your last save (and in most games you control that yourself). So there is really no reward system for carful play and roleplaying risk-awareness, which I think can really add to atmosphere and increases the complexity of decision making with regard to encounters. In M&B (especially when played in save-on-quitting mode), you really begin to evaluate the armies of your adversaries carefully. In the typical FPS or RPG, you typically rush into the engagement, and then reconsider your strategy or your options if that fails.
Thats not per se "bad", but I sure find it refereshing if games try something different every now and then, at least if the focus is on actually the feedback mechanisms for "failure" (which may be combat death, but really the philosophy also extends to failing quests etc., I like it when there is specific consequences, that are interesting enough to want to keep playing regardless).

Oh, it's not that I'm a big fan of reloading - but that I'm a fan of death being the natural consequence when failing in a life-threatening situation.

Maybe it's my lack of imagination - but I have a hard time coming up with better ways to handle that, that also feel plausible and immersive.

The System Shock mechanic is one way - and that was fine - except that I just reloaded instead, because I didn't feel like retreading or dealing with lost resources.

But, the simple act of dying and reloading is actually incentive enough for me to play smart. Maybe it's because I just enjoy playing smart - and I feel sufficiently punished for dying by having to reload, that this works well for me.

I like "save on quit" systems, if the game is 100% stable. I hate games crashing in the middle of something and that's probably why I prefer quick save - and not because I can't deal with dying.

I think, also, that loading/saving is a meta-game mechanic - and I have no issue with it because of that. Since it's not happening "in-game" - it doesn't kill my immersion. I guess, sort of like reading for a part as an actor - until you get it right. It doesn't kill the actual movie or performance - because once you DO get it right, it works like it should. If a movie had bad lines, and just let the actor repeat them - immersion would very quickly die, which is kinda how I view the Fable 2 mechanic. There's no incentive whatsoever to play well.

When I play cRPGs - my ultimate goal isn't to survive and "get through it" - it is actually to do things in the most entertaining and satisfying ways. To me, that's about building a powerful character, fighting with cleverness, saving resources - and things of that nature. So, I reload when I feel I haven't done well - and typically not because I died.

By not having that option available - I wouldn't be able to experiment a lot, which can either be good or bad - depending on the kind of experience the game was trying to convey.

It's a hard thing to debate - because pretty much all games of all genres have little things that makes a difference in what would work best.

Something like Grand Theft Auto 4 - I HATED. It was awful having to redo the same thing over and over, because of the archaic checkpoint system. Quick-saving would have worked a million times better. Respawning at the hospital made no difference, because you still had to walk/drive all the way to the event again.

On the other hand, I liked that Diablo forced you to play carefully - and forced you to go back and recover your corpse. Why? Because I felt the game was possible to learn - and towards the end, you only died when making a mistake you could have avoided. Naturally, dying and getting back to your corpse to recover items is a bit weird - but for some reason it didn't bother me. Then again, I didn't play that game for its immersive qualities - rather mostly for the addictive loot/level mechanic.

In a game like GTA4 - they keep throwing you into situations where you have no way of learning them, except by redoing them over and over. I HATE that. I want a fair shot at learning something - and then it's quite alright to be penalised for not making it. But only then.
 
The lack of death is one thing that I really disliked in NWN2. While it is true that players will generally reload on death for the main character (even if there is a resurrection that usually has some penalty), that's not true for the party companions.

Death adds an interesting dynamic to the game if a companion dies.

Can I resurrect him? And if so, what is the cost of doing (can I do it myself, do I need to carry his body somewhere, is there a penalty)? Or is it easier to reload.

Was the battle difficult enough that I'm willing to accept the death of the companion to not have to go through it again?

I'm not a huge fan of permanent death, I like to always have the resurrection option. There were times in BG2 that I said 'screw it, I'll resurrect the character rather than go through that battle again.'

In NWN2, that wasn't an issue. Someone 'dies'? Just keep fighting until the entire party is dead or you win as they'll wake up as soon as the battle is over anyway.
 
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
4,355
Location
Austin, TX
As long as there is a quicksave option, I'll reload quite frequently, and I have no issues with that. If there's going to be some sort of original death mechanic - make proper use of it, like PS: T where you can use dying as a mechanic to accomplish something (there are several quests that involves willingly being killed).
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
7,586
Location
Bergen
I like that the reloading screen of Drakensang 2 at least showed that the developers were expecting people to reloasd ("this had almost been death !") ;)

New to me was that in Blizzard's second Action-RPG, one would "wake up" (?) in the camp, and the corpse plus all of the equipm,ent was still lying there ... somewhere ...

Another thing are the Bones of Nethack ... I've never seen that in ny other game so far ...
 
Joined
Nov 5, 2006
Messages
21,979
Location
Old Europe
while i myself always reloaded rather than using the vita chambers, the main reason they were in the game at all was due to consoles and in my view that was a better call than implementing a lame checkpoint system which i think is FAR less immersive than the vita chambers which WERE explained in the games "lore" on at least one occassion and why they effected the player. a lot of the bioshock story is tied together on some thin strands of belief and the implementation of the vita chambers to your dna is vital to the "would you kindly" plot of having an invincible puppet that can't be put down. having to activate them in game would be pandering to those who were only looking at death logicially from one perspective and not the entire game as a whole which is only possible after completing it and for the most part discovering all the logs.

death penalty systems should be judged fairly on how they make sense in the game themselves and not on peoples personal preferences. but i guess that could be said about a lot of aspects. if every player had all their favourite preferences in one game then the moment after they finished that game all subsequent games that they played would be flawed or failed to live up to those expectations. there are so many entertainment mediums that cut and paste and retread the same old thing, to me i enjoy gaming(pc) simply because it is the youngest of them all and therefore still free to evolve at a higher rate and take risks. most of the games i enjoy the most are quite flawed (not broken) and ofter unique experiences--quite memorable to me. then there's a number of good games that offere up many enjoyable hours--but when i try to recount them their impression was too shallow to imprint any lasting enjoyment to be recalled upon like a vivid dream.
 
Joined
Oct 26, 2006
Messages
1,386
Location
California
while i myself always reloaded rather than using the vita chambers, the main reason they were in the game at all was due to consoles and in my view that was a better call than implementing a lame checkpoint system which i think is FAR less immersive than the vita chambers which WERE explained in the games "lore" on at least one occassion and why they effected the player. a lot of the bioshock story is tied together on some thin strands of belief and the implementation of the vita chambers to your dna is vital to the "would you kindly" plot of having an invincible puppet that can't be put down. having to activate them in game would be pandering to those who were only looking at death logicially from one perspective and not the entire game as a whole which is only possible after completing it and for the most part discovering all the logs.

No, there was no explanation of the vita chambers, beyond "they're somehow tied into your dna" and it was never elaborated upon. They didn't even think to make the obvious tie-in to have the main dude survive because of them. I clearly recall searching for an explanation, and I remember only a few logs giving intentionally vague information about them - because the designers didn't care.

I found it an obvious gimmicky mechanic taken from System Shock without the understanding of what made it work in that game - and they never bothered to make up a proper reason for their existence - much like most of the story was a mess without a plausible structure - like the whole ridiculous "plane crash" plot, which was incredibly far fetched.

Levine just wanted to make an impression, but he didn't have what it takes to create a story with a sound underpinning. The same goes for the characters.

His strength lies in the premise of a game - not the wholesome experience.

death penalty systems should be judged fairly on how they make sense in the game themselves and not on peoples personal preferences. but i guess that could be said about a lot of aspects. if every player had all their favourite preferences in one game then the moment after they finished that game all subsequent games that they played would be flawed or failed to live up to those expectations. there are so many entertainment mediums that cut and paste and retread the same old thing, to me i enjoy gaming(pc) simply because it is the youngest of them all and therefore still free to evolve at a higher rate and take risks. most of the games i enjoy the most are quite flawed (not broken) and ofter unique experiences—quite memorable to me. then there's a number of good games that offere up many enjoyable hours—but when i try to recount them their impression was too shallow to imprint any lasting enjoyment to be recalled upon like a vivid dream.

When speaking about what works in a game, it's pretty senseless to ignore your own experience with games - and how you feel about them.

So, if some game doesn't work for you - it doesn't really matter that the system has a good "explanation" - since a game is supposed to be entertaining.

Naturally, what people find entertaining will differ - and I see no way of judging a game objectively. All we can do is talk about what we like, and why we like it.
 
The lack of death is one thing that I really disliked in NWN2. While it is true that players will generally reload on death for the main character (even if there is a resurrection that usually has some penalty), that's not true for the party companions.

Really?

Based on our poll, 33% of players reload when a companion dies. But since 44% regularly reload to optimise the result and 15.98% reload habitually, I reckon only the 6% of hardcore "accept the consequences" players don't reload on companion death.

http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8905

That's my evidence - what's yours?
 
Joined
Aug 30, 2006
Messages
11,842
Location
Sydney, Australia
the games i enjoy most are often for aesthetic reasons which i don't really see as entertainment, not that it's not entertaining me. for me most "entertainment" fails because it doesn't place enough value on trying to create a cohesive piece of "artwork" weather it be the game mechanics or the games art direction. if either of those two elements don't come off as looking like a genuine effort was made than i'll be grabbing the vomit bag rather than anything else. most music i can't get into because most bands/artists are incapable of creating quality albums rather they go for a few strong hits and slap the rest together. that hasn't jived with me for a long time so i have a number of bands/artists i love and some stop producing and its rare that i bring new bands into the fold. music you can do other things while listening to it though sometimes the best enjoyment of it is to focus on it alone. gaming doesn't have that option and while some games are obviously a more causual investment than others i still expect a product that makes sense despite being more forgiving with many games due to their variable nature. my connection to game franchises is less important than say the "vibe" and experience i get from certain developers and those that have made some of my favourite games. i guess i look forward more to their "gameworldsound" that hits a chord in me by playing familar melodies of emotion and thought than whether or not they include an isometric vs. 3d view or different dialogue schemes. there's plent of good developers out their but obsidian, irrational and pirahna bytes are the only 3 current devs i can think of that have a track record of more than one or two games that have never made a game that forced me to question it is immature, shallow/meaningless, or an excess amount of gratuituity(which in games is usually violence)

edit: i forgot a fourth developer that i can always count on--jellyvision. the new youdon'tknowjack is one of the best ever and rivals my favourtite the ride. i highly recommend you getting it to either play with friends or by your lonesome. great writing and great humour. plus its got the host i enjoy the most--cookie.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Oct 26, 2006
Messages
1,386
Location
California
I'm surprised no one mentioned Planescape:Torment in this discussion.

Now that game did death well.... hehehahahe
 
Joined
Jan 1, 2010
Messages
274
Location
Toronto, Canada
I'm surprised no one mentioned Planescape:Torment in this discussion.
If you actually read the discussion you might want to revise your opinion… ;) (or do you mean in the original article?)

Aside from the odd puzzle, the death mechanism in PS:T is essentially vita chambers anyway :p
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
1,877
For some reason this article reminded me of the time I was killed in Solusek B (Everquest 1) and when I died my body fell of an edge and down several levels into lava. It was two days (real time) and finally the help of a GM to get my corpse back. Ah, good times.
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
2,897
Location
Oregon
Back
Top Bottom