Obsidian Entertainment - Cancelled: Project North Carolina - Layoffs

[Sir_Brennus]

Does that last bit about NWN2 include MotB? NWN2 MotB is in my top 10(that's just me though).

Totally agree. And what's with the hate for DS3 and South Park?

The latter one has not been released, but looks a promising game IMHO.

DS3 was an opportunity to work on a diabloesque game (again, if you count Dark Alliance 2) and give it that special Obsidian touch. Also it was a great proof of concept for the Onyx engine.

It was a console game foremost anyway, so why all this bitching by the PC crowd?

 

[KapitanUnterhosen]

It also doesn't make sense to me for a mid-sized developer to attempt the Bioware route by working on several games at a time with 100+ employees; that's a dangerous path unless, once again, you have significant and consistent backing. Why not stick to one core team, such as Pirhana Bytes, CDProject Red, or Larian Studios? Why over-expand when you are already struggling to establish your company and stay afloat?

I remember old obsidian interviews where one project at a time -while possibly ideal for the quality of the games you churn out- is what they felt got troika wacked and that is precisely what they want to avoid at all costs. They don't want to risk finishing up one project and then going months with no income before getting a new project funded, salaries have to keep getting paid during those interim months. This way there is a constant income to pay salaries with and meanwhile they're in a better position to get new projects funded than troika would be if they had become a shell of a company by firing all the underlings as soon as vtmb was done.

Kind of feel like the obsidian system keeps the owners/bigshots(who possibly make the bad business calls) in place while making everyone else expendable though.

Also, when the owners of a gaming studio e.g. Josh Sawyer, MCA, etc

AFAIK Sawyer is just an employee, not one of the owners.

 

[aries100]

I liked DS3, however, when I played the demo, the characters seemed half-finished, the moves were not as well constructed as I could wish, the follower didn't follow etc. etc.
And quite frankly, I expected something else from Obsidian. I expected a great story, good - or rather creativ and innovative - writing. Along with a combat system and a skill that made sense. I - and a few others - apparently didn't get this.

Even Alpha Protocol which I've only heard off took risks in the story department as well as the gameplay department. In short, when you get an Obsidian game, certain expectations about this have been build up, especially based on MotB and, Storm of Zehir, and Fallout: New Vegas.

If Bioware wanted to do something good for their pals? at Obsidian, they'd talk EA etc. into doing something in the Dragon Age universe.....or to try their hands at the endings in ME3...

 

[Gorath]

According to a Gamespot interview 3 months ago they have a burn rate of 1M$ per month. So they always have to have projects running.

 

[Thrasher]

Well, I wish all the laid off employees the best of luck in finding something else to do. It IS tough in this environment.

 

[Gorath]

Even Alpha Protocol which I've only heard off took risks in the story department as well as the gameplay department. In short, when you get an Obsidian game, certain expectations about this have been build up, especially based on MotB and, Storm of Zehir, and Fallout: New Vegas.

Alpha Protocol is actually quite attractive for an adventure game fan. Great dialogs with choices and consequences, multiple endings, etc. The action part isn't that hard if you choose the right weapons.

Spoiler: Weapons

Pistol with multi-shot skill, plus something for longer distance.

 

[Dhruin]

This is unfortunate, but it's not difficult to understand why the company is in trouble; sandwiched around the solid Fallout: New Vegas (critically and commercially) sits two underwhelming releases, Alpha Protocol and Dungeon Siege 3.

Don't we need more information to determine that? If the publisher cancelled because they were feeling a financial squeeze etc, this might have very little to do with Obsidian themselves. In that case, they have been unlucky, but it hardly speaks to their other output.

I know Obsidian lives from project to project, but I wish they had been more careful with the projects they agreed to work on. Dungeon Siege 3? South Park? Really? These are styles that don't fit Obsidian's strengths (or in the case of South Park, seem outright ridiculous), and there must have been better projects to work on, especially on the heels of New Vegas.

I don't see that it's so clear "there must have been better projects to work on". Sometimes you take a job because it's simply the best one in front of you.

It also doesn't make sense to me for a mid-sized developer to attempt the Bioware route by working on several games at a time with 100+ employees; that's a dangerous path unless, once again, you have significant and consistent backing. Why not stick to one core team, such as Pirhana Bytes, CDProject Red, or Larian Studios? Why over-expand when you are already struggling to establish your company and stay afloat?

This is exactly what killed Troika. CDPR is owned by a publisher! What sort of example is that? Larian has multiple teams and works outside of AAA games to pay the bills - they make kids/educational games (Ketnetkick, Monkey Labs etc) and other stuff to pay the bills. Nothing wrong with that, but that goes against their "strengths" as you yourself cautioned.

Piranha Bytes...got purchased by a publisher in '99, went bankrupt, new company (Pluto 13)...who knows how difficult times were when they split from JoWood? They seem to be doing well but it hasn't been plain sailing all along.

No one else thinks it is messed up they fired 20-30 people while they are recruiting for 10? You'd figure they would reasign people. These evil money-grubbing companies are pure evil. We should occupy inxile.

Not enough information. Maybe the website is out of date. Maybe a bunch of artists on cancelled game X doesn't help you when you need a lead programmer on game Y.

 

[Grimlorn]

That's the case with gamers, not publishers.

Yeah but New Vegas sold more than FO3 if I remember correctly. Obsidian should be a lot more popular than they are right now. Popularity and gamers wanting to see them make games probably helps with investors. It's just a shame they didn't get the recognition for the game they created.

 

[Gorath]

Then they have 2 mega hits under their belt: FO:NV and NWN 2. The latter also sold far more than a million units several years ago.

 

[khaight]

No one else thinks it is messed up they fired 20-30 people while they are recruiting for 10? You'd figure they would reassign people.

We have no idea what job roles were filled by the people who got laid off, and how the required skills match up with the positions for which they are hiring. People aren't just cogs who can be swapped from one job to another. I'm a damn good programmer, but I'd be a lousy manager and an utterly incompetent salesman. (And that's assuming those job postings are still good -- I've seen that kind of thing get way out of date.)

 

[Gorath]

Kotaku thinks it was a game for Microsoft on the next XBox. Half a year in development, canned yesterday.
If that's the case I'm surprised only 30 people were let go. XBox720 so early probably means HUGE budget.

 

[Nerevarine]

I remember old obsidian interviews where one project at a time -while possibly ideal for the quality of the games you churn out- is what they felt got troika wacked and that is precisely what they want to avoid at all costs. They don't want to risk finishing up one project and then going months with no income before getting a new project funded, salaries have to keep getting paid during those interim months. This way there is a constant income to pay salaries with and meanwhile they're in a better position to get new projects funded than troika would be if they had become a shell of a company by firing all the underlings as soon as vtmb was done.

A fair point, and a good line of thinking at the time those interviews were conducted. However, in hindsight, I feel that Obsidian is spread too thin. I realize what happened with Troika, but I've always felt that the reason for their financial failure had more to do with outright bad luck and very poor publisher partnerships. If they had better support from the publishers - every single game they produced was rushed and they never had enough time to finish their games, VTM:B was pretty much declared a failure by Activision before the game was even released, leading to an embarrassingly minimal marketing push and no post-release support, etc. - then I feel that their model could have worked. There's not much in the way of proving that because that isn't how it happened, but that's just the hunch I have. But relying on only one source of income isn't what I'm suggesting Obsidian should do.

If Bioware wanted to do something good for their pals? at Obsidian, they'd talk EA etc. into doing something in the Dragon Age universe…

This is actually a really good idea. I would love to see what Obsidian could do with the DA universe, and they have already proven to be a good fit for Bioware's design approach with their work on Kotor 2. both of these companies clearly have strengths in the story-driven department, and Obsidian's talent for writing creative characters and unique settings combined with the financial/marketing power of EA/Bioware could be a very successful combination. Obsidian working on just about any Bioware property could lead to good things, in my opinion - provided they could stay independent in the process.

I don't see that it's so clear "there must have been better projects to work on". Sometimes you take a job because it's simply the best one in front of you.

It's not clear, you're right about that; only Obsidian knows about the offers available to them. But i just feel that they could have done something better than DS3 or South Park, and taking "the best job in front of you" is sometimes only a good idea in the short term, as an immediate solution, but not so good from a long-term perspective. What if the South Park RPG is received poorly and flops? This could be far more damaging in the long run than being a bit more selective about which jobs to take on.

CDPR is owned by a publisher! What sort of example is that? Larian has multiple teams and works outside of AAA games to pay the bills - they make kids/educational games (Ketnetkick, Monkey Labs etc) and other stuff to pay the bills. Nothing wrong with that, but that goes against their "strengths" as you yourself cautioned.

If I'm not mistaken, CDPR has its roots on the publishing side in Poland, and it was quite an intelligent business plan to create the development side under the same banner/owner. They are essentially self-funded (with the exception of minor publishing deals in NA, for example), independent, and have multiple sources of revenue, such as gog. But they have one development team that puts every effort into one game at a time, and the quality of The Witcher series is very high in large part because of this approach, and they aren't depending only on The Witcher for financial security.

I also used Larian because they have one major team who creates the AAA games. It's really wise of them to discover and use other sources of revenue outside of this team, but they haven't expanded into multiple high-cost projects at a time. They have decided instead to implement smaller scale projects on the side to ensure continued revenue. This is exactly what I'm suggesting Obsidian should do: scale down the AAA side of things down to one major team while developing smaller scale projects on the side for consistent income. This would likely lead to far more stability for them than trying to produce multiple AAA RPGs simultaneously and they wouldn't be stretched as thin as they seem to be now.

 

[Lucky Day]

owners not getting paid - what does that mean?

letting people go when a project is done seems to be the way things are done in gaming right now, at least for smallish companies. it may be that they will hire some of them back, but not having publisher money to pay people they clearly felt the best thing to do (for the company) was to let those employees go - at least for now. It could also be their skill sets don't match what they are looking for in those other positions: ie. a musician can't fill a 3d artists spot.

 

[Gorath]

owners not getting paid - what does that mean?

It means the owners decided to leave the regular wages they would have received in the company. Generally you only do this if you believe the company needs the cash. Game studios usually need most of their cash for the employees' wages.
Of course they still have the option to withdraw their money when the situation allows it. Call it a credit. You get the money back if business is good and lose it if the company implodes.

 

[Grimlorn]

This is actually a really good idea. I would love to see what Obsidian could do with the DA universe, and they have already proven to be a good fit for Bioware's design approach with their work on Kotor 2. both of these companies clearly have strengths in the story-driven department, and Obsidian's talent for writing creative characters and unique settings combined with the financial/marketing power of EA/Bioware could be a very successful combination. Obsidian working on just about any Bioware property could lead to good things, in my opinion - provided they could stay independent in the process.

I doubt EABioware want the competition of Obsidian creating RPGs with their IPs. They could easily make a better RPG than DA2 was. Hell, I bet they could do a better Mass Effect game. But if that happened, then people would be looking to get RPGs from Obsidian instead of Bioware.

 

[killias2]

I doubt EABioware want the competition of Obsidian creating RPGs with their IPs. They could easily make a better RPG than DA2 was. Hell, I bet they could do a better Mass Effect game. But if that happened, then people would be looking to get RPGs from Obsidian instead of Bioware.

I certainly can't think of a single Bioware game that could possibly be followed by an Obsidian sequel.

What? Why is everyone looking at me like I said something silly?

 

[Sergorn]

Troika, but I've always felt that the reason for their financial failure had more to do with outright bad luck and very poor publisher partnerships. If they had better support from the publishers - every single game they produced was rushed and they never had enough time to finish their games.

This is basically what happens to Obsidian as well.

LucasArts moved up the XBox release of KOTOR2 a few month in order to have the game out for XMas. This forced Obsidian tu cut a lot of content and when they wanted to create a content patch to restore it, LucasArts didn't let them.

Neverwinter Nights 2 had a tight schedule, but I think there were some issues during development as well so Obsidian has their share of blame, and at least Atari let them patch the game properly.

Alpha Protocol is a prime exemple of a publisher dropping the ball on their developpeurs. Sega basically offered NO support, they didn't even bother localising the game for foreign market either and the delayed the game for six month AFTER the game had reached its initial released date, without communicating one bit about it. These six months could have been used to properly polish the game, do some balancing or bug fixes... but Sega didn't let Obsidian do it and just that on the game until the release they had decided to change for no reason. (As I recall the exact same thing happened with Sierra and Arcanum - indeed Arcanum actually leaked a few month on the Earth, it was buggy and people were "Well the final version will be improved" but as it turned out the copy of the game that was released ended being the same buggy one that got leaked a few month earlier).

Regarding Sega they also cancelled the Aliens RPG, and we still didn't get a reason for this. But then they seem to be handling the Aliens IP like crap, just look at the development of the Aliens Colonial Marines FPS... Though to be fair the cancellation of Aliens Crucible is what allowed Obsidian to rebound by doing Fallout New Vegas by the same Team.

Bethesda didn't exactly screw Obsidian and AFAIK they were very supportive... but Obsidian had a *very* tight schedule for Fallout New Vegas. They basically made the game in 1.5 years (I'd LOVE to see Bethesda try to do the same), and this is very short for a game this scope, with so much choice and consequence. The game is criticized for its bug, but it's a wonder it worked that well upon such a schedule.

However you know what game was made with strong publisher support, with a comfortable schedule ? Dungeon Siege III (which might get bashed by PC gamers but was a great Dark Alliance clone in the end), which also used their own engine, and which ended up very stable and pretty much bug free ont all three platforms.

Regarding the choice of Projects, one gotta point is that Obsidian probably doesn't have much choice: they WANT to do original IP and games, they've kept bringing up new IPs to publisher but they are just not interested. The thing is, getting a new IP started is just HARD. It's a risk and publishers are warry to take that risks, even moreso for RPGs. Even Bioware shipped Dragon Age for years without finding a publisher for it even while ridding on their previouses successes - indeed they only DID find a publisher for it... when EA bought them! It might be exagereted to claim that without EA Dragon Age might have handed cancelled and never published... but it IS a possibility.

In any case this is worrying news for Obsidian, I hope they recover, and I hope they'll have new projects to work on soon.

-Sergorn

 

[Unrestigered]

Not enough information. Maybe the website is out of date. Maybe a bunch of artists on cancelled game X doesn't help you when you need a lead programmer on game Y.

We have all the information we need. Owner's wanting to get paid and firing the little guys in the 99% is just corporate pigs trying to increase profit. DOWN WITH THE EVIL MONEY-GRUBBERS! We, the good and moral 99%, demand change or we will stand in the same general area and talk a lot and maybe throw a rape or two in for good measure.

 

[DArtagnan]

Unfortunate for the people affected, but this isn't a surprise. They suck as businessmen (I actually like that about them, but it's not helpful) - and they suck at Q/A, polish, and the spectacle. Also, they seem very bad at project management.

Unfortunately, those are things required for long-term success using the publisher model when you go beyond a certain budget, and you employ a lot of people.

 

[Dhruin]

If I'm not mistaken, CDPR has its roots on the publishing side in Poland, and it was quite an intelligent business plan to create the development side under the same banner/owner. [...]

OK, I understand where you are coming from now. I still don't think CDPR is a fair comparison - Obsidian can't exactly spend 10 years localising and publishing for a foreign language to build their cash reserves. Likewise, Larian has had some support (IIRC!) from the Belgian government and is operating in a different environment. I'm not clear why you think doing educational games is better than taking DS3 but at least I understand you are suggesting diversification.

We have all the information we need. Owner's wanting to get paid and firing the little guys in the 99% is just corporate pigs trying to increase profit. DOWN WITH THE EVIL MONEY-GRUBBERS! We, the good and moral 99%, demand change or we will stand in the same general area and talk a lot and maybe throw a rape or two in for good measure.

Are you ignoring the bit about the owners not getting paid, Roqua?