Recommend me a book

[Korplem]

I highly recommend The Prince of Nothing series. The writing is best described as intelligent. There isn't any divine intervention leading to a clear cut and annoyingly convenient ending.

One of my favorite things about PoN is the characters. There is no brave, handsome man that never loses a fight who falls in love with his trusty and busty female companion with their elven friend tagging along to mutter beautiful nothings about the history of every ruin they come across.

The main character, Achamian, is a fat, middle aged sorcerer. And his love interest? She's an aging whore.

Also, I'm not done with it yet but I'd have to recommend The Blade Itself. It's a very rough world with a lot of entertaining dark humor. If I had to sum it up with one word it'd be: Badass!

 

[Benedict]

You don't mean Stephen R Donaldson do you? His "The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, the Unbeliever" series is my all time favorite fantasy work behind Tolkien. It rivals LOTR in both scope and imagination.

Have you ever actually read any of his work?

I try to remain open minded about things I haven't tried, on the flipside I will read stuff I hate just so I can be justifiably rude about it. I even waded through the bloody da vinci code just so that nobody could go around trying to convince me it had even the slightest shred of literary worth without opening themselves up to some serious arguments.

I have read lord fouls bane and gap into conflict, and found both quite unappetising. I thought the leprosy dynamic was potentially interesting but he didn't do much with it beyond endlessly whining self pity from the main character. His prose style lacked any real flare and his vision lacked any atmosphere or real character for me, utterly put-downable.

Perhaps he doesn't deserve to be lumped as elevator muzak in the same league as Eddings though.

 

[dteowner]

Literary snob alert!!!

Back to the ivory tower with ye. I'm quite sure you can identify and detail all 7 levels of symbolism in Moby Dick and I'm really happy for you. [golf clap]Shandies for everyone in the drawing room![/clap] Perhaps someday you'll realize books can be fun without being monuments to literary genius.

 

[Prime Junta]

Considering that he listed Clive Barker, Neil Gaiman, and H.P. Lovecraft as favorites, I think it's pretty hard to paint Benedict as a literary snob. These authors are pretty squarely in the "fun without being monuments to literary genius" camp. As is Iain M. Banks (the one I recommended) for that matter.

Not liking some popular authors doesn't automatically make someone a snob. Nor does not liking *most* popular authors, nor even understanding something of the structure of a literary work either. You're only a snob if you pretend to like books you don't really like to appear more cultured than you are.

Or are you insinuating that it's actually impossible to genuinely prefer "highbrow" culture to popular culture? If so, *you're* the snob here -- of the aw-shucks what-me-go-to-the-opera anti-intellectual variety.

Oh, and about that Master and Margarita (which *is* a monument to literary genius) -- you oughta give it a shot. You might even like it.

 

[txa1265]

Not liking some popular authors doesn't automatically make someone a snob. Nor does not liking *most* popular authors, nor even understanding something of the structure of a literary work either. You're only a snob if you pretend to like books you don't really like to appear more cultured than you are.

Or are you insinuating that it's actually impossible to genuinely prefer "highbrow" culture to popular culture? If so, *you're* the snob here -- of the aw-shucks what-me-go-to-the-opera anti-intellectual variety.

I think what he was referring to was the tactic of 'reading something so I can put those who claim it has any shred of literary worth in their place'.

 

[Zaleukos]

I'd never waste a day reading a book only to be able to put fans down, there are simply better ways of spending times. Sometimes I watch movies just because I wonder what the heck the commotion is about (but then I wait for a rental release or airing on TV).

To get back on topic I dont read that much fantasy, and less SF, but I found Ursula le Guin's books refreshing and somewhat different. As always I'd suggest going to the local library for a sample.

On the SF front Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars triology starts out interesting but turns into a bit of a political piece, which depending on where one comes from could be annoying. It is however nice to read "realistic" SF. Otherwise my SF favourites are the first three Dune books by Frank Herbert. But those are hardly unknown to the readers of this thread...

 

[Prime Junta]

I think what he was referring to was the tactic of 'reading something so I can put those who claim it has any shred of literary worth in their place'.

Well, I haven't read Da Vinci Code so I really shouldn't comment, but based on Angels and Demons (which I have read) and second-hand chatter... I don't know if that qualifies as snobbish either. Conversely, I have a feeling that pretending that it *does* have literary merit may actually be snobbish.

Which doesn't mean that there's something wrong about liking Da Vinci Code anyway.

 

[Benedict]

I think what he was referring to was the tactic of 'reading something so I can put those who claim it has any shred of literary worth in their place'.

You've misquoted me a little there, if you're going to paraphrase someone please don't use quotation marks, they do tend to imply that you're quoting them verbatim. I said that I read it so that when in conversations with anyone who was claiming that the Da Vinci Code had some literary worth I would be well informed enough to be able to argue otherwise if I chose to.

And unfortunately there was a long phase where otherwise intelligent people seemed to be swept up in the mass delusion that it was a good book and tried to claim that it had some depth and insight. And more unfortunately, my will eventually cracked and I gave it a go on the grounds that so many people whose opinions I normally respect couldn't possible all be wrong. Well they were. Wronger than a wrong thing that's very much mistaken.

I could just have read enough of it to know how rubbish it was, but then they'd have tried to claim that I should have finished it, or that it got better, or if they'd been feeling truly suicidal that I didn't understand it. It's a natural response, indeed the very post that spurred me to mention it in the first place is a fine example of it - their instant response to me not liking a book that they liked is to assume that I can't have read it.

I'm not going out of my way to pick fights or make people feel stupid for not reading as intelligent books as me. I am however prepared to make sacrifices so that I can speak from a position of authority when saying that I personally don't like something. I like to be allowed to have my own opinions without people being able to dismiss them. Sure, they can still dismiss them because I've not argued them well, or even just because they think I'm a cunt, but they can't summarily dismiss them because I don't know what I'm talking about.

I have no objections to people reading things purely for enjoyment (although with the execrable prose style and endless and condescending repetition of every painfully transparent nugget of plot development to be found in the da vinci code I'm amazed that anyone found it enjoyable). Indeed I think it's sad if people don't read purely for enjoyment.

 

[Benedict]

Well, I haven't read Da Vinci Code so I really shouldn't comment, but based on Angels and Demons (which I have read) and second-hand chatter... I don't know if that qualifies as snobbish either. Conversely, I have a feeling that pretending that it *does* have literary merit may actually be snobbish..

Absolutely, if people aren't making any claims for literary merit themselves then it's pretty out of order to force one's own set of values on them. But if they're trying to establish their credentials on that set of values then they should be prepared to debate it properly.

 

[JDR13]

And unfortunately there was a long phase where otherwise intelligent people seemed to be swept up in the mass delusion that it was a good book and tried to claim that it had some depth and insight. And more unfortunately, my will eventually cracked and I gave it a go on the grounds that so many people whose opinions I normally respect couldn't possible all be wrong. Well they were. Wronger than a wrong thing that's very much mistaken.

Wow, I think dteowner might have hit the nail right on the head.

It's called having an opinion, just because you don't share someone else's doesn't make theirs wrong.

 

[Benedict]

Literary snob alert!!!

Back to the ivory tower with ye. I'm quite sure you can identify and detail all 7 levels of symbolism in Moby Dick and I'm really happy for you. [golf clap]Shandies for everyone in the drawing room![/clap] Perhaps someday you'll realize books can be fun without being monuments to literary genius.

I'm asking for book recommendations on a forum for people who enjoy computer role playing games, do you think I'm aiming for achingly highbrow recommendations or just a couple of good fantasy / scifi books for light holiday reading?

 

[Benedict]

It's called having an opinion, just because you don't share someone else's doesn't make theirs wrong.

Normally I'd agree, but the da vinci code was quite achingly bad

Would you say that people should be allowed to actively express opinions that they can't then argue in defence of?

 

[Benedict]

I'd never waste a day reading a book only to be able to put fans down, there are simply better ways of spending times. Sometimes I watch movies just because I wonder what the heck the commotion is about (but then I wait for a rental release or airing on TV).

It is however nice to read "realistic" SF. Otherwise my SF favourites are the first three Dune books by Frank Herbert. But those are hardly unknown to the readers of this thread...

It's not like I devoted any time I could meaningfully have spent doing anything better to it, if I hadn't I'd just have ended up reading whatever the London Lite had to say about Amy Winehouse's latest drunken humiliation instead in an attempt to block out commuting, or read the ingredients on the back of toiletry bottles for the fourth time after failing to find anything better to read on the toilet before running a genuine risk of shitting my pants.

Anyway, Dune - what utterly fantastic books. Sure there's a time and a place for reading some simple, fun books too. But Dune was fun to read and utterly gripping, a world that comes to life in the readers head and that lives on in the imagination for years afterwards.

What's wrong with setting out quite clearly in a thread designed to supplement my reading that I'm hoping for people to suggest stuff of that kind of calibre? If I'm happy to just read any old stuff then why go to all the trouble of starting a thread and ordering it specially, I can just go into the airport waterstones and pick up whatever I like. The thread isn't "What books do you like" it's "Suggest books that I'd like", and much though people are entitled to like what they like without being wrong, in the context of what I like recommendations can be wrong because they're wrong for me

 

[Benedict]

Considering that he listed Clive Barker, Neil Gaiman, and H.P. Lovecraft as favorites, I think it's pretty hard to paint Benedict as a literary snob. These authors are pretty squarely in the "fun without being monuments to literary genius" camp. As is Iain M. Banks (the one I recommended) for that matter.

Oh, and about that Master and Margarita (which *is* a monument to literary genius) -- you oughta give it a shot. You might even like it.

I'm a big Terry Pratchett fan too, fun without being literary genius again. I even like Robert Rankin's stuff, and considering most of his books (particularly the later ones) seem to be written while in the pub that's definitely not highbrow . . .

Whatever - prose style is absolutely critical in my opinion. I don't need a book to speak to me, I don't need it to explore powerful themes or offer devastating insight to the human condition. I do like it to be well written though.

Looking forward to having a crack at master & Margarita anyway, I got the amazon delivery over the weekend and it's going into my luggage

 

[Benedict]

I highly recommend The Prince of Nothing series. The writing is best described as intelligent. There isn't any divine intervention leading to a clear cut and annoyingly convenient ending.

The main character, Achamian, is a fat, middle aged sorcerer. And his love interest? She's an aging whore.
!

That sounds good to me, I prefer less sympathetic protagonists. I've already bought stuff this time round but it's in my "buy later" basket for next time

 

[Zaleukos]

What's wrong with setting out quite clearly in a thread designed to supplement my reading that I'm hoping for people to suggest stuff of that kind of calibre? If I'm happy to just read any old stuff then why go to all the trouble of starting a thread and ordering it specially, I can just go into the airport waterstones and pick up whatever I like. The thread isn't "What books do you like" it's "Suggest books that I'd like", and much though people are entitled to like what they like without being wrong, in the context of what I like recommendations can be wrong because they're wrong for me

There's nothing wrong with that. But why were you keeping a copy of the DaVinci code in the bathroom ???

That said I agree with most of your evaluations (save the Thomas Covenant stories which I found quite ok, certainly way above the awful Eddings shite), so Le Guin might be worth your time...

 

[Benedict]

There's nothing wrong with that. But why were you keeping a copy of the DaVinci code in the bathroom ???

That said I agree with most of your evaluations (save the Thomas Covenant stories which I found quite ok, certainly way above the awful Eddings shite), so Le Guin might be worth your time...

In the hopes that I ran out of toilet paper and would have a socially acceptable reason to treat it with the respect it deserves Plus whatever novel I've got on the go is generally by my bed or in the toilet or in my bag for commuting purposes. At the moment I've got the massive book of the Planet Earth series in the toilet, so I'm learning while I poo

I agree that lumping donaldson with eddings was undeserved though, my apologies for that.

I have read the earthsea books, and enjoyed them, particularly Tombs of Atuan (had to google that, it's been a while). I've always liked the idea of names having power, since for us all words are nothing more than semantic maps we use to model reality the concept that there are true words that are reality is a powerful meme, and one she uses well. I enjoyed the taoist undertones to the books as well, indeed there was a generally philosophical bent to the novels which lent it quite a feminine style, so many male authors approach fantasy world creation by determining the axioms of their world and deciding facts to give it depth but she seemed to approach it by getting inside their thought systems and letting the practicalities and details flow from that.

*sits in his literary snob hole happily digging further down*

 

[dteowner]

You've misquoted me a little there, if you're going to paraphrase someone please don't use quotation marks, they do tend to imply that you're quoting them verbatim.

Actually, Perfesser, those ain't quotation marks that Mike done used. A quotation mark has two little dohickies doncha know. Perhaps a refresher course is in order?

I'm not going out of my way to pick fights or make people feel stupid for not reading as intelligent books as me.

*wiping drool from chin* Not nuff pictures for me see!!! Me like hockey!!!

I'm asking for book recommendations on a forum for people who enjoy computer role playing games, do you think I'm aiming for achingly highbrow recommendations or just a couple of good fantasy / scifi books for light holiday reading?

Actually, that's exactly what I'm wondering. You asked for some recommendations on a gaming forum and then copped an attitude like you're an esteemed literary critic when people took the time to try to give you the help you requested. Even if the help is unhelpful or even downright retarded, it's considered good manners to be gracious when someone makes the attempt.

The thread isn't "What books do you like" it's "Suggest books that I'd like", and much though people are entitled to like what they like without being wrong, in the context of what I like recommendations can be wrong because they're wrong for me

Then perhaps you should have considered your audience a little better and certainly stowed the condescension for another day.

 

[Benedict]

Actually, Perfesser, those ain't quotation marks that Mike done used. A quotation mark has two little dohickies doncha know.
Perhaps a refresher course is in order?

Actually for those of us in England either one or two can be acceptable, provided that they match. A point of pedantry that I'm sure will do wonders for my attempts to convince you that I'm not an objectionably condescending snob

Actually, that's exactly what I'm wondering. You asked for some recommendations on a gaming forum and then copped an attitude like you're an esteemed literary critic when people took the time to try to give you the help you requested.

Then perhaps you should have considered your audience a little better and certainly stowed the condescension for another day.

Huh? I named some authors that I didn't like, and only when someone reacted to seeing one of their favourite authors in there by saying that I must have not read them did I start saying anything derogatory about any books. My apologies for it being taken so badly, I'd not meant to piss on anyones chips particularly, I'd expected them to be happy to argue for what they liked.

Then admittedly I got sidetracked onto the da vinci code, which I possess a fairly irrational hatred for. But come on, that really is awful . . .

Anyway, I'm genuinely sorry if anyone felt that I was ungrateful for the recommendations anyway. Whether I agree with people's tastes or not I do appreciate them taking the effort to recommend stuff and fully intend to explore peoples' suggestions. And where I've been forthright in my views on books that I have read it was meant in the context of trying to clarify my own tastes for people to get appropriate recommendations rather than meant to disparage people for their tastes and establish some imagined intellectual superiority.

Except for the Da Vinci Code, which really is utter shit, and if any of you liked it you should be ashamed. Particularly if you liked it enough to recommend it to some unsuspecting innocent.

*Note for future reference - please don't take anything I write too seriously (including the last line above). Particularly if I'm ranting. Please do tell me if I am causing offence but please assume that I'm not setting out to do so.*

 

[Prime Junta]

Actually, Perfesser, those ain't quotation marks that Mike done used. A quotation mark has two little dohickies doncha know. Perhaps a refresher course is in order?

Actually, they are quotation marks. Specifically, "single quotes." "Straight single quotes" if you're being extremely picky.

Then perhaps you should have considered your audience a little better and certainly stowed the condescension for another day.

Oh get off your high horse already. As if you've never participated in a thread that went off on a tangent.