Dragon Age 2 - Building a better RPG @ Destructoid
- Thread starter Dhruin
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Bioware is full of shit indeed.
That was one bad first impression(demo).I really don't know what to make of DA2, haven't really followed its development either, i do believe however that the world of DA has such potential… that it would be a waste if they totally messed up with DA2.I hope they didn't.
That was one bad first impression(demo).I really don't know what to make of DA2, haven't really followed its development either, i do believe however that the world of DA has such potential… that it would be a waste if they totally messed up with DA2.I hope they didn't.
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DArtagnan
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In my opinion:
EA has nothing to do with it. Bioware changed long before they joined them, and they joined them BECAUSE they changed - and their visions have become similar.
The good doctors wanted this, so there's no stopping them - and they're fully aware of the minority they're leaving behind.
I'm not saying they don't care - I just think they care more about the added millions of copies they get to sell.
EA has nothing to do with it. Bioware changed long before they joined them, and they joined them BECAUSE they changed - and their visions have become similar.
The good doctors wanted this, so there's no stopping them - and they're fully aware of the minority they're leaving behind.
I'm not saying they don't care - I just think they care more about the added millions of copies they get to sell.
Dhruin
SasqWatch
No, DA2 is not just an action game. I'm saying following metrics too closely will eventually get you there, though.
Rest in peace old bioware go quietly in the night and dream of the days of old glory.
There but seriously your right who would care about the fan base that made you when you could make more money catering to a mass market.
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DArtagnan
Guest
Rest in peace old bioware go quietly in the night and dream of the days of old glory.
There but seriously your right who would care about the fan base that made you when you could make more money catering to a mass market.
Well, I actually think they DO care.
I don't think they're an "evil mass corporation" - but I also think it's human nature to want to grow, and to get bigger and bigger.
Once you start earning a lot of money, and people start speaking about you everywhere - you'll get a taste for that.
Sort of like a rockstar
So, I think they feel they're doing something important or something good - by growing bigger and bigger.
Personally, I think that once you reach a certain stage - growth will actually diminish what you can do, and what you are as an artist - but it's none of my business.
All I see is a company that was once about making fantastic games, and are now more about making a ton of cash.
Nothing objectively wrong with it, but I think it's tremendously sad - and a huge waste of artistic talent.
I hope, in the end, they'll find it to be a good trade-off.
I hope so to one way or the other. It would be a shame if the company went under. There is alot of pressure because of there mmo and how much it already cost.
I agree with DArtagnan - this whole thing started years ago, with Jade Empire and KotOR. I very much doubt DA2 will beat either of those games in terms of being streamlined, story driven or simplified.
NWN was the last game BW developed where players had lots of variety in terms of classes and skills. I very much doubt they're going to change back to their former recipe all of a sudden.
NWN was the last game BW developed where players had lots of variety in terms of classes and skills. I very much doubt they're going to change back to their former recipe all of a sudden.
The demo makes exactly this impression to me.
Action ... just think on what this really means, in terms of gameplay. More explosions, faster animations, more adrenaline ...
*signed*
Very well put. I'm very impressed.
So it's rather a kind of "Partners in crime" ?
The quest for power attracts those who who look for it towards already have it ?
Naked Ninja
Watchdog
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You've hit a key point here but it supports the new Bioware approach, Dhruin.
WoW is incredibly stat heavy. Most people who scoff at MMOs will scoff at this statement, but in terms of stats WoW is every bit as complex, if not moreso, than almost every singleplayer RPG. It's not just DPS, there are tons of variables.
Here's the thing though. They introduce that complexity in tiny increments. You start the game selecting a name, race, class and appearance. That's it. You don't allocate skills or stat points, and to start off everyone has 2-3 skills. That's all. Completely simple. You get a new active skill every level or so, you only start getting talent points to customize your character with at level 10 and your gear load out (which is the heart of stat manipulation in WoW) is only really important at higher levels. You don't need to worry about it in the beginning.
But you end up like this :
Playing my mage I really long for an extra pairs of hands, that's how many hotkeys I need. They would have nowhere near the playerbase they currently do if that was what was presented to new players. They hide that complexity and introduce it to players step-by-step, allowing them to master each new element in turn.
Blizzard are REALLY good at interface and 'flow/play' design. The idea that 'the masses' can't handle complexity is ludicrous. The average human being handles more complexity every day at their jobs, in school and while driving than they will ever face in a computer game. It's not intelligence.
But generally people are taught things in increments and we don't rely on them having a background in the system right off the bat. DnD RPGs are easy for me to pick up now but I didn't know any of the rules in my first PnP session, they gave me a pre-rolled character and helped me with the rules when I wanted to do something while I learned the ropes.
It's perfectly acceptable to say 'don't throw too many numbers at players to start'. This is not a sign of greed or stupidity. It's fine to give the player a simple start point then introduce the complexity gradually, as I had when learning PnP. It's fine to aim at a segment of the population that aren't already familiar with or fans of RPGs and try to craft an experience that gets them hooked by the possibilities before they have to face the book keeping.
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DArtagnan
Guest
I don't think anyone here doubts it will attract more people, the more accessible you make your game.
They want to maximise the appeal of their game, just like Blizzard want to maximise the appeal of their games.
But gently introducing people doesn't necessarily mean ending up being a complex, deep, or fulfilling experience. If you look towards WoW - the opposite has been the direction for a long time - even though they still try to cater to both audiences.
You might not call it greed - but I think that's about as good a word for it as any.
They want to maximise the appeal of their game, just like Blizzard want to maximise the appeal of their games.
But gently introducing people doesn't necessarily mean ending up being a complex, deep, or fulfilling experience. If you look towards WoW - the opposite has been the direction for a long time - even though they still try to cater to both audiences.
You might not call it greed - but I think that's about as good a word for it as any.
Wow screens really look this way ??? 
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DArtagnan
Guest
Wow screens really look this way ???
Only if you choose to raid - which you will once the hamster wheel demands it
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Speaking as one of the dropouts, you're wildly generalizing DArtagnan. I'm a Fallout I, II, PS:T, BG:1, Ultima everying fan. Zork was freakin cool. My bona fides are solid.
My experience was not of being overwhelmed by stats from the beginning, but confronting a permutation of statistics that sapped my energy. If the stats are reasonably up front or clear as in the SPECIAL system, the two layered Elder Scrolls system, or some variant of D20, I can deal with that. Changing one kind of statistic or one kind of equipped item creates an easily understandable chain, or sum, of effects on how the game plays. When I get into statistics that multiply, have permutations of effects, or complex logic, I get tired quickly (see Materia from FF7 or army builds from Ogre Battle). Sometimes even under SPECIAL I get weary trying to optimize the party since that, too, is a permutation of stats effects.
I don't dislike those kinds of stats, but I feel the driving need to create a spreadsheet to suss out the possibilities and that takes energy from someone who's already been dealing with feedback loops and control systems all day. I can do it, but I've got limited time and energy to deal with it. I'd probably not even touch the thing if I had children demanding even more of my energy. Honestly it's a personality tic. I'm a cautious player and need to have everything perfectly set and understood so that I can continue forward in a game without qualm (hence re-arranging gold bars in UVII or eliminating every single virus before moving on rather than just beating the game in Darwinia). In board wargames I'm often called the "successful McLellan", akin to the real life Powell doctrine of overwhelming force. In RPGs it sometimes presents itself as a generalized anxiety that I'm not "playing the game right" if my party isn't sufficiently prepared or optimized for the next challenging quest. The desire to just turn off the game and leave it increases and maybe I'll come back to it later when I have energy.
So when I see a combat system like that of DA:O and it's not well explained (VERY poorly explained) in the game, I see a very large obstacle that I just don't want to deal with. Combine it with a cinematic style that never really engaged me even in the days of the great Star Wars games and it's no wonder I dropped it.
What I'm seeing here is similar depth, but exposed to me in increments so that I can wrap my head around it without engaging in the kind of energy sapping "homework" that I've just done all day long. And what I suspect is that the disengagement for the people you accuse of being simpletons is similar. They've got stuff to do. Why spend your precious 2-3 spare hours engaging in work instead of playing the game? Some stats obsessed people do it (shoot I do it if I can get a running start and know I have the time), but most need relaxation… not simplistic, stupid stuff, but the ability to seamlessly sync the tired brain with the game.
And yeah, the Ostagar part was kind of boring too.
My experience was not of being overwhelmed by stats from the beginning, but confronting a permutation of statistics that sapped my energy. If the stats are reasonably up front or clear as in the SPECIAL system, the two layered Elder Scrolls system, or some variant of D20, I can deal with that. Changing one kind of statistic or one kind of equipped item creates an easily understandable chain, or sum, of effects on how the game plays. When I get into statistics that multiply, have permutations of effects, or complex logic, I get tired quickly (see Materia from FF7 or army builds from Ogre Battle). Sometimes even under SPECIAL I get weary trying to optimize the party since that, too, is a permutation of stats effects.
I don't dislike those kinds of stats, but I feel the driving need to create a spreadsheet to suss out the possibilities and that takes energy from someone who's already been dealing with feedback loops and control systems all day. I can do it, but I've got limited time and energy to deal with it. I'd probably not even touch the thing if I had children demanding even more of my energy. Honestly it's a personality tic. I'm a cautious player and need to have everything perfectly set and understood so that I can continue forward in a game without qualm (hence re-arranging gold bars in UVII or eliminating every single virus before moving on rather than just beating the game in Darwinia). In board wargames I'm often called the "successful McLellan", akin to the real life Powell doctrine of overwhelming force. In RPGs it sometimes presents itself as a generalized anxiety that I'm not "playing the game right" if my party isn't sufficiently prepared or optimized for the next challenging quest. The desire to just turn off the game and leave it increases and maybe I'll come back to it later when I have energy.
So when I see a combat system like that of DA:O and it's not well explained (VERY poorly explained) in the game, I see a very large obstacle that I just don't want to deal with. Combine it with a cinematic style that never really engaged me even in the days of the great Star Wars games and it's no wonder I dropped it.
What I'm seeing here is similar depth, but exposed to me in increments so that I can wrap my head around it without engaging in the kind of energy sapping "homework" that I've just done all day long. And what I suspect is that the disengagement for the people you accuse of being simpletons is similar. They've got stuff to do. Why spend your precious 2-3 spare hours engaging in work instead of playing the game? Some stats obsessed people do it (shoot I do it if I can get a running start and know I have the time), but most need relaxation… not simplistic, stupid stuff, but the ability to seamlessly sync the tired brain with the game.
And yeah, the Ostagar part was kind of boring too.
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It's not just about stats or the "streamlining" for me though…it's everything.
The graphics, the animations, the characters, and the overall atmosphere in general, all seem to have taken a step backwards from DA:O. That's just my opinion though, I'm not trying to state it as fact.
I don't like the new artistic style at all, and I didn't see a reason to change it that drastically from the first game. I dislike the speed and animation of the combat even more. The combat of DA2 just feels too automated and distant for my taste.
That's all based on the demo of course, but I don't see how the full game would be different in those aspects.
The graphics, the animations, the characters, and the overall atmosphere in general, all seem to have taken a step backwards from DA:O. That's just my opinion though, I'm not trying to state it as fact.
I don't like the new artistic style at all, and I didn't see a reason to change it that drastically from the first game. I dislike the speed and animation of the combat even more. The combat of DA2 just feels too automated and distant for my taste.
That's all based on the demo of course, but I don't see how the full game would be different in those aspects.
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Hmm, if you quit within an hour, you probably quit in the Origins, not Ostagar. Actually ( I am still not finished) Ostagar was my favorite seciton of DaO so far, I liked the "Helm's Deep" like feeling of approaching doom, and the battle scene was awesome.
NN: excellent post. Nevertheless, when you already have a very well introduced predecessor, is the notion of introducing everything slowly not in danger of really boring those people that already know the system really well? If you have a very successful game like AoD at your hands, that probably reached a good percentage of your potential market already, isn't that the last thing you want to risk?
NN: excellent post. Nevertheless, when you already have a very well introduced predecessor, is the notion of introducing everything slowly not in danger of really boring those people that already know the system really well? If you have a very successful game like AoD at your hands, that probably reached a good percentage of your potential market already, isn't that the last thing you want to risk?
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