Welfare reform in Michigan

[JemyM]

I've always thought that welfare recipients should do some manual labor for the state - unless physically unable, of course. At least picking up trash or whatever. Lousy jobs for welfare might motivate them to find a real job and if not, at least the state would look better.

The problem is that there are actual employed people doing this already and you just get people to take their jobs.

 

[JDR13]

I believe the theory is that if you've been getting checks from the government (let's not forget that these checks are over and above many other forms of welfare that are going to the exact same recipients) for 4 years or more, you're probably not trying that hard to find a job.

Exactly.

If the person is disabled, etc, then that's another story, but most of these people are able-bodied adults. A lot of them are simply milking the system.

 

[Korplem]

The problem is that there are actual employed people doing this already and you just get people to take their jobs.

I understand that there might be people doing that work with real jobs. But, the idea, to me at least, isn't directly about doing the jobs. It's about getting something out of tax dollars (rather than nothing) and on the other side, earning money rather than taking a handout.

I wouldn't dare say that you can take the average welfare recipient and tell them to lay down new fiber optic cables or operate complicated machinery. However, I would say it might be worthwhile to assign these welfare workers to skilled workers as assistants. If that alleviated the workload of the already employed workforce, that would be at the very minimum, a better use of tax dollars than throwing into the black hole that it currently is.

And, if there really are no available places for them to work, give them some orange vests and let them pick up trash on the side of the roads. There isn't ever a shortage of garbage.

 

[dteowner]

Once again, keep in mind that this particular welfare program is cash payments over and above other public assistance programs and completely seperate from the disability support system. I realize we're drifting into a broader context for the discussion (which is perfectly fine), but I wouldn't want this specific reform to get misconstrued as starving kids in wheelchairs.

 

[hishadow]

That the law being retroactive seems unusually cruel. I'm surprised there is any social welfare left in the US regardless.

I've always thought that welfare recipients should do some manual labor for the state - unless physically unable, of course. At least picking up trash or whatever. Lousy jobs for welfare might motivate them to find a real job and if not, at least the state would look better.

There's a word for that. It's called employment! Just create the jobs and offer them to those that receive welfare benefits, all 11.000 of them. Maybe they'll even unionize.

A more serious solution would be mandatory full-time job training or even tradeschool training (yeah, that'll cost some extra money). Those that are able to get a job will see the benefit of having a full-time job, and people who are unable to participate in working life can get singled out.

 

[Corwin]

This has been around for years there. It has two names I believe, the Lions and the Red Wings!!

 

[GothicGothicness]

O, I have the solution.... why haven't I thought about this?

In china prisoners are forced to play world of warcraft during their time awake! After that they'll sell the gold. With the new diablo 3 market place... this will probably be even better business.

So make them gold farm 10 hours a day! This will produce a steady income for the gouverment, and even a lot of disabled people can do it! + It is very easy to monitor!

 

[JemyM]

I understand that there might be people doing that work with real jobs. But, the idea, to me at least, isn't directly about doing the jobs. It's about getting something out of tax dollars (rather than nothing) and on the other side, earning money rather than taking a handout.

I wouldn't dare say that you can take the average welfare recipient and tell them to lay down new fiber optic cables or operate complicated machinery. However, I would say it might be worthwhile to assign these welfare workers to skilled workers as assistants. If that alleviated the workload of the already employed workforce, that would be at the very minimum, a better use of tax dollars than throwing into the black hole that it currently is.

And, if there really are no available places for them to work, give them some orange vests and let them pick up trash on the side of the roads. There isn't ever a shortage of garbage.

In the US perhaps.

I did argue frequently for this solution in the past. However, the problems were too many so I dropped it.

As far I concern there are also important psychological advantages of a such system as it gets the individual out of isolation, something that is vital for several reasons.

The problem many rational people have is that they simply assume that the information available to them is available to everyone (reversed Dunning Kruger effect). Can more be aware about what knowledge actually do to the human brain we would have less issues as far as I concern. The "rational-choice theory" that became very popular in some areas is nothing more than corrosive.

Staying home might be a "choice", the problem with all "choices" is that you always do what you based on all information you got pick the choice that is best for you. No one picks a worse option in their own head. Reality is quite deterministic that way. The best way to address this is to expose the individual to more choices and the individual will automatically pick a better choice if it appears.

Naturally sitting at home will not expose the individual to choices, rather the opposite.

That said, an individual who spend too much time doing the kind of work you suggest will not get exposed to choices either, especially if all they do is to work alone or with other unemployed people.

To get around this you need to move the individual around to many different kinds of jobs and you might even increase the chances by adding education to the mix. What this does is to increase the individuals awareness, or "their cognitive landscape", which increase the amount of visual choices to the person.

 

[Ubereil]

If the person is disabled, etc, then that's another story, but most of these people are able-bodied adults. A lot of them are simply milking the system.

I think you guys have a very broad definition of able-bodied. To take a really clear example, let's say DTE gets so depressed he can't bring himself to get out of bed in the morning. Would you still consider him able-bodied?

Übereil

 

[JDR13]

I think you guys have a very broad definition of able-bodied. To take a really clear example, let's say DTE gets so depressed he can't bring himself to get out of bed in the morning. Would you still consider him able-bodied?

Maybe you just have a very narrow definition of "disabled".

 

[Ubereil]

As far I concern there are also important psychological advantages of a such system as it gets the individual out of isolation, something that is vital for several reasons.

+1

Maybe it would work if you made it a part of a part time job, so to speak? Unemployed are to pick trash for an hour each week (or even month) etc. Make the time short enough that it motivates the pay. And it doesn't have to be trash either, there are plenty of goverment jobs that are understaffed (taking care of the elderly comes to mind).

Maybe you just have a very narrow definition of "disabled".

I believe it's yours that's very narrow, since you seem to think a lot of pepole who really can't do better than they already are are simply milking the system.

Übereil

 

[Alrik Fassbauer]

My dad and I have joked about getting welfare recipients to work on infrastructure or other necessary manual labor for ages now…

We Germans are a bit sensitive about this, because "working for infrastructure" was a favoured means by the Nazis to let Jews and others they didn't like "work until they die".

This was killing the slow way.

 

[JDR13]

I believe it's yours that's very narrow, since you seem to think a lot of pepole who really can't do better than they already are are simply milking the system.

No, I think a lot of people who can do better are milking the system. But I'm probably wasting my time telling you that, since you seem to misinterpret everything I say.

 

[redman5427]

Kindly put, we in Michigan have had people who could get apartments/housing paid for by the State. Section 8 I believe it is called. Then they could get a car provided. All repairs as well. Food.Health care,etc. There has been re-education and job training programs for a long while. Some of the people do work but they will be the first to tell you they have to limit their hours or they lose out of welfare. We have generational welfare in the state. The deal is there are no jobs. Well trained people are having trouble finding jobs here. There was a headline a week ago about Michigan having 35% of our children living in homes where their parents are jobless.

I would like to say this should be corrected but for once I have to agree with the left wingers that this is a bit extreme. I don't think our legislature considered wrong or right, they are really running out of funds and now they are proposing dropping the personal property tax on businesses along with the single business tax they already abolished. This would amount to another 11 % decrease in tax revenue. As a business owner I am pleased but I don't see how they are going to make up for all the red ink. Corporations are not going to make a beeline here again, thats for sure.

 

[blatantninja]

This has been suggested in a lot of countries. But there is quite some problems involved actually. What kind of work should they do? who will take care of their children when they are working ( if they can't afford daycare) if they are alone, how do you make sure they do the work? what if they do a bad job… will they be fired? get no money? Also why not use them to save money instead of hiring people? the problems goes on. + they cannot do any education or other things if they are out picking trash.

Basically what you do is just create a lot of extremly low salary jobs that none would want, and that are not considered important enough to spend the state budget on. And you'd call the salary, wellware instead of salary.

I don't disagree completely, but there is also the mental aspect of it. Getting paid to work, even crap work, is better mentally for most people than just collecting a check in the mail for breathing.

As for the child care, well we already have a lot of programs to help with that. And for getting them to do a good job? At the least you pay them more than they would get on welfare.

Most people collecting welfare aren't interested in education anyway, so you might as well show them that they can do some manual labor and earn a living. We have tons of projects that need to be done. Hell, just in NYC alone, at least half the street need basic pothole maintenance. And there is trash everywhere because no one seems to care.

 

[blatantninja]

I think you guys have a very broad definition of able-bodied. To take a really clear example, let's say DTE gets so depressed he can't bring himself to get out of bed in the morning. Would you still consider him able-bodied?

Übereil

he just needs motivation.

 

[blatantninja]

We Germans are a bit sensitive about this, because "working for infrastructure" was a favoured means by the Nazis to let Jews and others they didn't like "work until they die".

This was killing the slow way.

We had a lot of works programs during the Great Depression and we didn't work people to death .

 

[MasterKromm]

We Germans are a bit sensitive about this, because "working for infrastructure" was a favoured means by the Nazis to let Jews and others they didn't like "work until they die".

This was killing the slow way.

My paternal grandmother is German… But no, I did not mean it that way. I wasn't implying a forced slave/labor camp structure. However, those who are able bodied should contribute in some way to their own existence, no? In America there is a shortage of qualified tradesmen/skilled workers (plumbers, electricians, carpenters, ect). Would training those capable of learning and helping them find work(even if it's working for the city or state) be so bad? Or those that are physically fit but lack the intelligence to excel as tradesmen/skilled workers, perhaps they could be put towards working on city/state beautification(IE cleaning)?

I don't want to see people starving/dying in the streets… But there has to be a better alternative.

 

[Alrik Fassbauer]

We had a lot of works programs during the Great Depression and we didn't work people to death .

That wasn't the state's intention, to "work people to death".
That's why it didn't happen.

Kindly put, we in Michigan have had people who could get apartments/housing paid for by the State.

Just 2 points :

- Giving people too much is like making them dependent. It's like putting too much money into poo African countries - without asking the people living there for what it should be spent.

Because if they are NOT asked, where the money is NEEDED, then the money flows "parallel" zu them, bypassing them.

It makes them dependent.

- The oher point I wanted to give is that of a "housing monopoly".

It goes like this here in Germany :

Blocks of flats standing in certain urban districts are usually full with people of lower social classes. It's a failure in social housing, to put too many of the same social structure together - whast evolves is a kind of "modern ghetto".

But that's not the point.

The point is, that these blocks of flats are ofrten full with people who are already dependent from sicial elfare - and their flats are paid by the government.

Now, what happens ist this : Estate companies buy these blocks of flats. They cash in the rental fees. Which is payed by the government, because of the welfare.

These estate companies re for the profits. They cash in the rental fees, but do NOTHING to repair or otherwise support the physical flats.

The result is, hat these blocks of flats deteriorate in the course of time. And no-one does anything.

The inhabitants are often too poor, and they often don't even now how to protest agaimnst this. No-one told them that formal protesting is possible.

we here in Germany have the possibility that I, as an inhabitant, could cut the rental fee I'd have to pay when repairs aren't done. this is allowed by law - to force estate firms to inally do the repairs - ecause money is when they are hurt most.

But now, we have a problem : These blocks are paid by the government.
And they just can't or at least don't cut the rental fees.

So, the blocks are sold to another company, it cashes in the profits, does nothing, the blocks deteriorate even more - the block is sold to another company, which cashes in the fees, does nothing, sells it again ...

And the goverment is helpless, cannot do anything against them, and it's only a matter of time until the blocks are so much eroded nobody can live in them.
Then they must be teared down - on PUBLIC costs, of course ! - because the very last estate compny in this "monopoly chain" will most likel have gone bancrupt alrteady (here in Cologne we had a similar case like this already !) - and all those who have been within this chain are rejoicing, because they have fully exploited the state, cashed in the profits, and everyone's happy (on their side).


The system that stands behind this is very clear and simple to be put into a single sentence I once read long ago :

"Privatize the profits - Socialize the Losses !"

The private firms cash in all of the profits -
- whereas all of the losses are turned so that the public must fulfill them.


The easiest example of this are mines. The profits o the miney are privatized, but the losses in form of "Renaturation" and restoration are put upon the public.

An the government often does it even freelym, because they often fall prey to the argument that "otherwie, jobs will get lost".

Miney are much, much, much much much LESS profitable if the companies which are exploiting them would take the "Renaturation" of them into ccount.

But no-one usually does. Mines are just abandoned. as open holes. All profits taken.

 

[dteowner]

I think you guys have a very broad definition of able-bodied. To take a really clear example, let's say DTE gets so depressed he can't bring himself to get out of bed in the morning. Would you still consider him able-bodied?

Übereil

dte would need to quit his snivelling and get off his dead ass, because dte has responsibilities to his family and to himself that are far more important than laying around feeling sorry for himself.