Europe's 9/11

[Alrik Fassbauer]

It is a question of interpretation as well.

Those extremists prefer rather extreme interpretations ...

 

[Dez]

It is a question of interpretation as well.

Those extremists prefer rather extreme interpretations …

I agree one can interpretate a religion in many different ways.

Anyhow here is a list of islamic terrorist attacks from 2010 to current date just to put some context on this discussion whether islam is a peacefull religion. Ofcourse there are christian extremists as well, but since this discussion is about islam…

I'm no expert on this subject, but atleast this list proves that one can find justifications for extreme acts from the holy books of Islam.

Source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamic_terrorist_attacks

1. Russia March 29, 2010 - Moscow Metro bombings. 40 dead, 102 injured. Caucasus Emirate claimed responsibility[30]
2. United States May 1, 2010 – 2010 Times Square car bombing attempt, New York, New York, USA. Faisal Shahzad, an Islamic Pakistani American who received an American citizenship in December 2009, attempted to detonate a car bomb in Times Square working with the Pakistani Taliban or Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan.
3. Pakistan May 28, 2010 – Attacks on Ahmadi Mosques Lahore, Pakistan. Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan claimed attacks on two mosques simultaneously belonging to the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, killing nearly 100 and injuring many others.[31]
4. India December 7, 2010 – 2010 Varanasi bombing, India. 2 dead, 37 injured.
5. Sweden December 10, 2010 – 2010 Stockholm bombing, Sweden. killing the bomber and injuring two people.
6. Russia January 21, 2011 - Domodedovo International Airport bombing. 37 killed, 173 wounded[32]
7. Germany March 2, 2011 – 2011 Frankfurt Airport shooting, Frankfurt, Germany. 2 dead, 2 injured.
8. China July 18, 2011 – 2011 Hotan attack, Hotan, China. A group of 18 young Uyghur men who opposed the local government's campaign against the full-face Islamic veil perpetrated a series of coordinated bomb and knife attacks and occupied a police station on Nuerbage Street, killing two security guards and taking eight hostages. The attackers yelled religious slogans, including ones associated with Jihadism, 4 killed, 4 wounded.
9. China July 30, 2011 - A series of knife and bomb attacks occurred in Kashgar, China. Uyghur men hijacked a truck, killed its driver and drove into a crowd of pedestrians. They then got out of the vehicle and attacked pedestrians with knifes. On July 31, a chain of two explosions started a fire in a restaurant, 15 killed, 42 wounded.
10. Nigeria December 25, 2011 - Christmas Day bombings were bomb blasts and shootings at churches in Madalla, Jos, Gadaka, and Damaturu. Over 41 people are reported dead.[33]
11. Iraq 5 January 2012 Iraq bombings, Baghdad and Nasiriyah, Iraq by Islamic State of Iraq. 73 dead, 149 injured.
12. Thailand February 14, 2012 - A series of explosions occurred in Bangkok, Thailand, 5 wounded.
13. Iraq 23 February 2012 Iraq attacks, Baghdad, Iraq by Islamic State of Iraq. 83 dead, 250+ injured.
14. Iraq 20 March 2012 Iraq attacks, Baghdad and at least 9 other cities, Iraq. 52 dead, ~ 250 injured.
15. France March 20, 2012 – Toulouse and Montauban shootings in France. 7 dead, 5 injured.
16. Russia May 3, 2012 - Makhachkala attack. 14 dead, including 2 suicide bombers, 130 wounded[34]
17. Bulgaria July 18, 2012 - 2012 Burgas bus bombing - 7 dead, including the suicide bomber and 32 injured at Burgas Airport, Burgas, Bulgaria.
18. LibyaUnited States September 11, 2012 – 2012 Benghazi attack on the U.S. Consulate. 4 dead, 11 injured.
19. India February 21, 2013. – 2013 Hyderabad blasts, two bomb blasts killed 16 people and injured 119.
20. United States April 15, 2013. – Boston Marathon bombings. Two brothers, Tamerlan and Dzhokhar Tsarnev, planted two bombs near the finish line of the Boston Marathon. The blast killed 3 and injured 183 others.[35]
21. Turkey May 11, 2013 – Reyhanlı bombings, killed 52 people and wounded 140.
22. United Kingdom May 22, 2013 – Two men with cleavers kill British soldier Lee Rigby in Woolwich.[36][37]
23. Kenya September 21, 2013 – Westgate shopping mall attack, 67 killed, 175 wounded.[38][39][40]
24. Pakistan September 22, 2013 – Peshawar church attack, 80-83 killed, 250 wounded.
25. Nigeria September 29, 2013. - Gujba college massacre. 44 students killed by Boko Haram
26. China October 28, 2013 - A 4x4 vehicle crashed into a crowd and burst into flames in Tiananmen Square in Beijing, 5 killed, 38 wounded.
27. China March 1, 2014 - A group of 8 individuals attacked civilians at Kunming Railway Station, 28 dead, 143 wounded.
28. China April 30, 2014 - Two assailants attacked passengers and detonated explosives at the Ürümqi railway station, 1 dead, 79 wounded.
29. China May 22, 2014 - Two SUVs which carried 5 assailants were driven into a street market in Ürümqi and up to a dozen explosives were thrown at shoppers through the windows of the SUVs. The cars then crashed into shoppers and collided into each other and exploded, 39 dead, 90+ wounded.
30. Syria August, 2014. - Islamic State fighters massacred some 700 people, mostly men, of the Shu'aytat tribe in Deir ez-Zor Governorate.[41]
31. Australia September 23, 2014. – 2014 Endeavour Hills stabbings. Numan Haider, an Afghan Australian stabbed two counter terrorism officers in Melbourne, Australia. He was then shot dead.[42]
32. Nigeria February 14, 2014. - Borno Massacre at least 200 killed by Boko Haram[43]
33. Nigeria May 20, 2014. - Jos bombings at least 118 killed and over 56 injured[44]
34. Belgium May 24, 2014. - Jewish Museum of Belgium shooting. Gunman opened fire at the Jewish Museum in Brussels killing 4 people.
35. Russia October 5, 2014 - 2014 Grozny bombing. 5 officers and the suicide bomber, were killed, while 12 others were wounded.[45]
36. Canada October 20, 2014 - 2014 Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu ramming attack. Lone attacker used his car to run over two Canadian soldiers. 1 killed, 1 injured
37. Canada October 22, 2014 – 2014 shootings at Parliament Hill, Ottawa. Lone attacker shot a soldier at a war memorial and attacked Parliament. 1 killed, 3 injured[46]
38. United States October 23, 2014. – Zale H. Thomson, also known as Zaim Farouq Abdul-Malik, attacked four New York policemen in the subway with a hatchet, severely injuring one in the back of the head and injuring another policeman in the arm before being shot to death by the remaining officers, who also shot a bystander.[47]
39. Nigeria November 28, 2014. - Kano bombing. Around 120 people were killed and another 260 injured.[48][49][50][51]
40. Russia December 4, 2014. - 2014 Grozny clashes. 26 total dead, including 14 policemen, 11 Jihadist from Caucasus Emirate, 1 civilian[52]
41. Australia December 15, 2014. – 2014 Sydney hostage crisis.[disputed – discuss] 2 dead, 4 injured.[53][54][55][56][57][58][59][60]
42. Pakistan December 16, 2014. – 2014 Peshawar school attack. Over 140 people dead, including at least 132 children.[61]
43. Yemen December 16, 2014. - Two suicide car bombers rammed their vehicles into a Shiite rebels' checkpoint killing 26, including 16 students.[62]
44. Nigeria December 18, 2014. - 2014 Gumsuri kidnappings. Boko Haram insurgents killed 32 people and kidnapped at least 185 women and children.[63]
45. Syria December 18, 2014. - Mass grave of 230 Tribesmen killed by Islamic State found in Eastern Syria.[64]
46. France December 21, 2014 - 2014 Dijon attack. A man yelling Allahu Akbar ran over 11 pedestrians with his vehicle. 11 injured
47. France December 22, 2014 - 2014 Nantes attack. A man driving a white van ran over 11 pedestrians at the city's Christmas market before unsuccessfully attempting suicide. 1 killed, 10 injured
48. Nigeria December 22, 2014. – Boko Haram insurgents bombed a bus station in the city of Gombe, killing at least twenty people.[65]
49. Iraq December, 2014. - Islamic State militants execute 150 women Iraqi province of Al-Anbar, some of whom were pregnant at the time, who refuse to marry their fighters.[66]
50. Iraq December 24, 2014. - A suicide bomber killed 33 people and wounded 55 others in Madaen, about 25 km (15 miles) south of Baghdad.[67]
51. Somalia December 25, 2014. - Al-Shabaab (militant group) attack in Mogadishu leaves 9 dead.[68]
52. Cameroon December 28, 2014. - Boko Haram attacks village in Cameroon leaving 30 dead.[69]
53. France January 7, 2015. - At least 12 killed in shooting at office of French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo, Paris [70]
54. Nigeria January 8, 2015. – 2015 Baga massacre. Boko Haram attacks town of Baga in northern Nigeria killing at least 200 people. Another 2000 are uncounted for.[71]
55. France January 9, 2015. - 4 hostages killed in Porte de Vincennes hostage crisis, Paris.
56. Germany January 11, 2015. - Rocks and an improvised incendiary device has been thrown through a window inside the headquarters of the daily newspaper Hamburger Morgenpost in Hamburger. The reason behind this attack, is that the Hamburger Morgenpost, has included one of the Charlie Hebdo's (shooting at office of French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo) caricature of Mohammed in their newspaper. No one was killed.

 

[FretRider]

France is merely getting what it bargained for, and rest assured it is far from the end of it.

Hilaire Belloc wrote eloquently about the total incompatibility between Islam and the West. That is the reason why moslens always refused to embrace our culture and technology except on their own terms, and that is the reason why all religious misssionary effort on the part of Christians failed to convert them significantly.

It is literally the dumbest idea on earth to move muslins into places like Paris and expect them to adapt into a multicult paradise of tolerance and plenty. Literally too dumb to be true. Moving then in and expecting chaos, instability and destruction, however, is quite brilliant.

Yes, that was a hint.

 

[Moriendor]

If they wanted to be busted why would they wear balaclavas? What are the odds ALL of them forgot their IDs?

It's terrorist training 101 that you wear balaclavas to come across more menacing, both in person and if caught on video tape by public or bystanders' cameras.
Jihadi John has long been identified as the IS killer of several Western hostages and still wears his masquerade in order to intimidate his victims and viewers.
Re the IDs: As I said, they might have been "forgotten" on purpose. It might have also been a decoy by the police. Maybe in reality no ID was ever found and they found out about the brothers from fingerprints or any other means of identification they did not want to reveal so they made up the 'we found IDs' thing.

It reminds me of how after the real 9/11 they found the terrorists passports in the rubble that somehow survived the explosion THEN one of them came forward and was ALIVE and could prove he was no was in another country. The official report was left unaltered. The same report that doesnt even mention "building 7", which collapsed, like the main 2, at free-fall speed and wasn't even hit by a plane.

IIRC the majority of the 9/11 terrorists was identified via IDs and other personal belongings left behind in the rental cars they parked at Boston International Airport on the morning of the attacks.
That one guy might have been a case of mistaken identity and one of the terrorists using the real person's stolen passport due to a visual likeness. Terrorists aren't all retards. Some actually do plan stuff carefully.

What would it prove? If you're really that hardcore islamic you speak in arabic! You talk to god in his language! These are acts you do for GOD, not for the french public.

Well, according to all the (including eye/listening witness) reports that I have read, they actually DID yell 'Allahu akbar' repeatedly so I'm really curious where this wild rumor is coming from that they only spoke in French?
Are you saying they didn't even know the term 'Allahu akbar'? Come on now. The vast majority of the people on this planet might not speak Arabic but almost everyone knows at least the basics like 'Allahu akbar' and 'Salam aleikum'.

Because you get more points with god for taking out more infidels. Why let any live? Why waste time asking peoples names when you could just kill them all and escape sooner. Why not martyr yourself with a suicide bomb, even. It's just too orderly. If they were dumb enough to ALL leave their ID cards in the get away car I doubt they'd go to the effort of working out who lives and dies.

I'm not sure what you're on about with the "asking names" thing? What credible source is there for that?
Even so. It might be true. They first got the address wrong so they were probably very insecure afterwards whether they got the right building and the right floor and agency. Charlie Hebdo did not have their name on the door, on the bell or anywhere to easily identify them from the outside due to constant threats.

Also, from what I have read, the attack lasted approximately five minutes which is very fast. They killed who they wanted to kill.
If they just wanted to kill as many infidels as possible, there would have been much easier and more spectacular ways like the Eiffel Tower, Louvre, Centre Pompidou or just any popular place in central Paris where they could have continued their shooting spree until killed by police.

Naturally I don't know what their post-Hebdo plans were. From an outside perspective it seems like they did not have much of a plan. The escape was amateurish, chaotic (they wrecked at least one of their getaway cars) and erratic.
As was the 2nd guy's role (who took the hostages at the Jewish super marche). He said the "plan" was that the Kouachi bros would do Hebdo and he would take care of the police.
If I were the Kouachi bros, I'd fire that guy since he obviously got the date wrong and how exactly did shooting one cop on the morning following the attack "take care" of the police? Very poor "performance" there.

Well, this video I just found shows the raw footage I saw earlier with some comments that I agree with. (Safe for Work)
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=729_1420912438

I'm sure you can find some other videos of people being shot in the head if you need to see what it really does. It makes a bloody mess.

Yep. It makes a mess if the projectile exits the body. It does not every time. From the angle shown here, it looks like the perp shot the cop in the back of the skull or into the neck from above. Once the projectile hits bone structure, it is anyone's guess what will happen next as the projectile is usually diverted or splits up into shrapnel within the body.
The cop was also wearing a winter jacket. He was a bicycle cop as far as I have read who was the first responder to the initial 911 (or whatever the number is in France) call. The bullet might have entered the back of his skull or the neck and either not exited at all if the shot went vertically through his body and got stuck in the upper/lower torso or it might have exited in an area that was not visible to the camera or that was visible to the camera but due to the several layers of clothes there wasn't an immediate visible blood stain.

The melon comparison in the video is cute. Last I checked melons did not have bones au contraire to a human skull.

What are you speechless about? Did you read Ron Pauls article? (he ran for president in USA)

Look, I'm (sometimes) all for conspiracy theories and asking valid questions but in this case, I really don't see any red flags or false flags or whatever.
If any "interested party" wanted to make a big splash in France, specifically in Paris, you could have it much easier with many more victims by targeting one of the popular tourist attractions or just about any place with several cafes in the city center. I was in Paris just last year. It is a very lively city. If all that counted was the number of victims and creating as much attention as possible, it would be insanely easy to do so.

Nope. This is… or was… what it is/was… two pretty stupid radicalized young bros and a similarly dumb buddy, both groups each with a single target, one being 'Charlie Hebdo' and the other 'the cops' and a Jewish super marche. They might have been indoctrinated and received operative terrorist training in Yemen/Syria/Iraq but they apparently skipped the planning, tactics and (exit) strategy classes.

 

[ChienAboyeur]

Excellent advice, indeed do read the quran (not just bits and pieces taken out of context in similar way bits and pieces can be extracted from the bible or torah) or appropriate translation.

Islam is a big problem. It is useless to deny it. It is a big problem as believers in Islam or those who are loosely connected to it, what they call cultural muslims or those who have relatives(living or deceased a long time) keep being involving in situations that expose society for what it is.

The massacre had one miraculous consequence: before it, it was easy to find places, especially english run places that kept underlining that there was no freedom of speech in France.
After the event, suddenly, those places changed their minds: there was freedom of speech in France. The required stunt to paint the massacre as an assault on freedom of speech in a place there was no freedom of speech.
Nothing short of a miracle: over a day, freedom of speech had appeared as a mushroom. Yesterday, France was a place devoid of freedom of speech. Today, it is a temple to freedom of speech.
Expressing oneself in these places over the miracle that is nothing short of an evidence of the existence of god, reminding people what they stated or did yesterday, asking them how those guys managed to attack something that wasnt led to be cursed, ignored or banned. Wonderful exhibition of freedom of speech indeed.

There is no freedom of speech. There are different degrees in censorship, with a hierarchy of people in the access to censorship. Some can censor nearly everything, others can censor nearly nothing.

Muslims are often involved in situations that expose things as they are.

Today, people cant demonstrate to support freedom of speech. There is no freedom of speech. They can demonstrate to support the hierarchy in censorship though. This is what is done.

Censors do not support freedom of speech. Censors have no interest in freedom of speech. Censors could easily show their support to freedom of speech by not censoring. They dont do it.

Censors when they censor do not support freedom of speech. They destroy freedom of speech.

Censors have no interest in freedom of speech, their interest is in "I can censor you, you cant censor me"

Muslims have often involved in situations that keep exposing things for what they are: in this case, it exposes that there are a lot of people to support the current status in the hierarchy in censorship, very few to support freedom of speech.

Do muslims do this because of Islam? Maybe, maybe not. Islam might be targeted for some other properties rather than for the teachings of Islam.

 

[Charlemagne3.0]

This has nothing to do with Islam, and everything to do with the corrupt culture/governments in the countries these idiots come, or get their teachings from. Saudi Arabia(The House of Saud) actively promotes radical Wahhabism in order to deflect attention away from their own brutal and corrupt governance, and keep themselves in power.

The great irony, the Qur'an is actually more progressive than the bible, especially in the way it deals with women! People who've no idea what they talking about are usually surprised to find out that Jesus, Marry, and other major figures from both Jewish, and Christian holy text, appear prominently in the Qur'an. Not sure why this is the case since both Christianity, and Islam, are at heart heretical off shoots of Judaism.

Although an ardent atheist, I'm fascinated by religion and it's often heavy handed, and corrupt influence on society as a whole. As a result, I've studied many different religions in the academic sense (at University). While modern day Islam is desperately in need of a reformation, it's -textually- no worse than the other two Abrahamic religions. To put it simply, there's some seriously shady s#@! that takes place in all three.

If you think the big C is immune, just wait until the radical right finishes losing the culture war here in murica. They're already killing and terrorizing workers and doctors at family planning, and abortion clinics. Now they're trying to pass laws to force women seeking an abortion, -including victims of rape- to undergo a completely unnecessary and invasive medical procedure. Essentially, state sponsored rape as a deterrent. They're also anti-birth control, anti-federal government, and love the hell out of their guns... despite the fact that they kill themselves, and each other, more than they do criminals. Which brings me to....

These assholes kill FAR more Muslims than they do us, and not a peep out of our leaders until one of our own is killed. Oh, you can kill as many of those olive skin people as you want, just leave ours alone. What isis, isl, whatever the hell they're called, is doing to the innocent men and women of the region, especially the women, is amongst the greatest travesties in human history, yet, it gets little attention in the media. Well, not in America any way.

I'm also willing to bet that all four of the scum responsible for the attack on Charlie Hebdo came from one of France's highly segregated suburban slums. NO! Poverty, and marginalization are in no way an excuse for murder, not even remotely. Still, if you leave people who have little or no hope to their own devices, someone WILL step in to fill the void.

Regardless, we can't let these worthless sociopaths rob us of the freedoms so many have suffered and died for over the centuries. We have to be as zealous in guarding what we've gained, as they are in their attempts to move us back to the dark ages. To that end, a big thumbs up to Charlie Hebdo's first issue since the tragedy. The only thing these murderers and their supporters deserve, is our collective contempt.. and a bullet. Enough of my rambling.

 

[Adverant]

This has nothing to do with Islam, and everything to do with the corrupt culture/governments in the countries these idiots come, or get their teachings from. Saudi Arabia…

Islam proscribes the form of of government, the courts, the rights, the rules of evidence, etc… Saudia Arabia's constitution is the Koran. The governments and culture are products of Islam…there's no separating them. The Koran is a blueprint for governance.

Even if you think that Christianity is -"textually"- on par with Islam (I strongly disagree), there is no tradition of figurative interpretation in Islam except when absolutely necessary. The reason, Islam was created because the other people of the book (Jews and Christians) supposedly lost faith, they didn't take the word literally enough, introduced their own mechanations through interpreting the word. Islam is meant to be simple and both the Koran and Muhammad warned readers against figurative interpretation.

It is a religious tenet of Islam that if the Koran has meanings beyond what is plain only Allah has the wisdom to reveal them. http://bahai-library.com/books/announcement.quran/1.html

He it is who hath sent down to thee "the Book." Some of its signs are of themselves perspicuous; these are the basis of the Book and others are figurative. But they whose hearts are given to err, follow its figures, craving discord, craving an interpretation; yet none knoweth its interpretation but God…

 

[Charlemagne3.0]

You really want to go there? Christianity has as much -if not more- blood on its hands as Islam. Read the so called "Old Testament" (a term disrespectful of Judaism). The commands to rape, pillage, and commit genocide go on forever.

The inquisition, colonization (based on the arrogant ideology of the white mans burden to convert the heathens.. while taking their gold, killing them, and raping their women), etc. The widespread anti-Semitism that was both common, and wide spread throughout pre-WW II Europe, was also a product of Christianity ("Christ killers"), and has a direct causal relationship to the Holocaust. The dehumanization of Jews was amongst the churches most prominent doctrines.

What you're attributing to the Qur'an (including sharia law) came about long after Muhammad was dead and dust. This in the form of the Hadiths.

Don't get me wrong, religion is absolutely the root cause of all of this. As an atheist in a country with a prominent, and politically potent religious right intent on forcing their own backwards, biblically based views on the rest of us; my defense of religion typically ends with the thought that, everyone has the right to believe in whatever nonsense they want to, as long as they don't try to impose it on the rest of us.

My own view is that a world would be a much better place if the majority of its inhabitants didn't believe that text, written by savages thousands of years ago, was the end of the argument.

What I object to is the bigotry, and wholesale generalizations, inherent in many of the responses to these tragedies. I know plenty of Muslims who are decent and compassionate people, and to see them lumped together with the two legged pieces of trash who carry out these mass murders, leaves a bad taste.

The problem goes much deeper than "Islam is bad", and until we in the West address the underlying issues that cause young men to flock to these sick SOB's (including propping up dictators in the region for our own political gain, at the expense of the victims of that brutality), more innocent people will die. This problem has been a long time in the making, and we in the West have most definitely had a hand in it.

 

[FretRider]

The great irony, the Qur'an is actually more progressive than the bible, especially in the way it deals with women!

lol.

Let me guess, you are one of those brainwashed uni-social-liberal-marxist-atheist-sjw types who rallies against the evils of "intolerant white cis patriarchal christian society and the folly of religion",all the meanwhile defending the "multicultural" presence of "the religion of peace".

The nightmares western education forms nowadays are lovecraftian in their horror. You make absolutely no sense. The fact that in the same text you bash the Inquisition and the Church for their "intolerance and bloodshed" while defending Islam at the same time displays a complete and absolute ignorance of what goes on in the world.

You really want to go there? Christianity has as much -if not more- blood on its hands as Islam. Read the so called "Old Testament" (a term disrespectful of Judaism). The commands to rape, pillage, and commit genocide go on forever.

Leviticus and other bodies of laws from the OT were never used by Christians. It seems to me you should really have a beef with the jews, the ones you are so worried about being "disrespectful" to.

 

[Charlemagne3.0]

Uni, liberal, brainwashed blah, blah, blah? Not really, although better that than some ignorant, right wing head case, with a persecution complex, and no grasp on logic or reason.

What I am is an historian (in the literal sense) who's actually -to some extant- studied the history, culture, as well as the religious and academic text of the peoples under discussion. In other words, unlike you, I actually know what I'm talking about. And yes, the Qur'an does indeed have a book entitled "Women", which prescribes much more respectful, and humane treatment than the other Abrahamic religions. Do a majority of Muslim countries follow these dictates? Hell no, quite the opposite.

As for defending Islam, might I suggest that you actually attend one of those universities you find so threatening? Your reading comprehension is severely lacking. I'll type it slowly, I AM AN ATHEIST. With the possible exception of Buddhism, which is more philosophy than religion, you wont catch me defending the tenets of any superstition. As far as I'm concerned, all three Abrahamic religions are backward and savage. All three have a tremendous amount of blood on their hands, both past and present.

Also, if you seriously believe that Christians (both past and present) don't use the old testament to justify some of their more idiotic excesses, then there's no hope for you. No one ranting against the gheys, or women being treated as equals, quote the "new" testament.

My concern is the idiocy of lumping in the innocent, with the guilty. Sort of like saying all heterosexual white male Christians are evil. Obviously nonsense, but so is the notion that all Muslims are evil.

Let me ask you this, what good will all of the idiotic ranting against da mooslums accomplish? There are close to two billion of them in the world, and they aren't going to stop believing what they believe because you and your ilk don't like it. The only way to stop all of this is to discredit the mad ideology espoused by the extremist. The first step in doing that is cleaning up our own s#@!.

Who do you think created the modern boundaries of these countries, purposely putting opposing groups against one another in order to insure instability? Who do you think invaded Iraq under false pretenses, all the while vomiting out religious platitudes and willfully ignoring the people who actually study the region, and told them -correctly it turns out- exactly what would happen if the did so? Who do you think paid the ransoms of idiots who willingly went into unstable war zones and got themselves captured, effectively funding groups like IS.. whatever the hell they're called? The governments who paid these ransoms are complicit in the deaths of thousands of innocents in the region. Men, women, and children, killed with guns and ammunition they paid for.

What message does this send to the people of the region? One of our lives is worth a thousand of yours? An ass backwards approach in the endeavor to win over hearts and minds.

Our governments have been trashing, and destabilizing the region for decades, all for our own means and ends, and not the betterment of its people. Yes, we did have a rather large hand in creating the environment that allowed this madness to take root, and we have a responsibility to help find a solution. If not for their sake, then for our own. The only one displaying complete and absolute ignorance of what goes on in the world, and more importantly, what caused it, is you.

 

[Fnord]

@Charlemagne

This isn't about who committed the greater atrocities in history, but whether Islam can become like other religions.

My primary argument against that is Islam does not permit figurative interpretation — that is what everyone keeps hoping Muslims will do, but both the Koran and Muhammad clearly warned against it — and there is no higher authority in Islam than those two sources.

Islam and the Koran allows for interpretations in very much the same way as Christianity & the Bible. It was due to this that Bagdad could become such an important center of learning during the earlier parts of the middle ages, and it was due to this that Iran, before the CIA coup was at the same level as most western countries. And is also due to this that people can commit such heinous crimes as IS (and to quote an imam who was talking about IS on local news "If Mohammed was re-born today, he would have been executed for heresy by IS").



One theory I heard about why acts like what happened in France are made is because the people who commit these acts wants people to direct their anger towards the Muslims living in the country. Conflict & marginalized groups makes for a breeding ground for extremism. If people are unhappy with how they are treated in their own country, they are far more likely to join organizations such as IS.

What I am is an historian (in the literal sense) who's actually -to some extant- studied the history, culture, as well as the religious and academic text of the peoples under discussion. In other words, unlike you, I actually know what I'm talking about. And yes, the Qur'an does indeed have a book entitled "Women", which prescribes much more respectful, and humane treatment than the other Abrahamic religions. Do a majority of Muslim countries follow these dictates? Hell no, quite the opposite.

Speaking of history, it was in part due to people bringing home ideas from the holy land after the crusades that women started to get a say in Europe.

The very harsh treatment of women that we see in several Islamic countries today comes from the re-interpretation of the Koran by Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab.

 

[Adverant]

The very harsh treatment of women that we see in several Islamic countries today comes from the re-interpretation of the Koran by Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab.

Abd al-Wahhab, founder of wahhabism, didn't re-interpret the Koran — anyone who advocated that in Islam would be summarily executed. No, it was a clarion call against re-interpretation. To purify Islamic territories of any heresies, to make the conquered people submit, and strip them of their old traditions….

You see it throughout Islamic writing and history, every time the Islamic world fell short there was a call for purification. Wahhabism was born out of one of those instances. Similarly, the Muslim Brotherhood sprang out feelings of Islamic decline when Western technology was used to build the Suez Canal. And ISIS and Boko Haram are modern incarnations of the same phenomenon…calls for religious purity to gain Allahs favor, to help Islam rise over it's enemies.

Which is my point. There is no re-interpreting Islam. The commandments of the Koran and Muhammad explicitly exclude that possibility. There is only purifying it. This is always the answer in Islam, failure is always met by identifying more infidels who need to be put down — wahhabism legitimized killing other Muslims for their lack of belief, like carrying on non-Muslim traditions.

Finally, your example of Islam being at the forefront of science and technology as the West fell into the Dark Ages has nothing to with a re-interpretation of Islam. That was the start of Islam. A start that began by conquering large numbers of 'infidels' and amalgamating their knowledge, before forcing them to abandon their traditions, freedoms, for Islam — before purifying them.

 

[FretRider]

And yes, the Qur'an does indeed have a book entitled "Women", which prescribes much more respectful, and humane treatment than the other Abrahamic religions.

You seem to be intentionally ignoring the Hadith, the Sunnah and all other islamic traditions. Intectually dishonest and not something that a "scholar who knows what he is talking about" woud do, mr. historian.

Having to wear ninja suits and being lashed or stoned to death at the first offence isn't exactly "humane treatment". Specially compared to the "inferior abrahamic religions", as you put it.

I know you live apart from reality, but I must point out that women living in Israel or Italy have it much better than women living in Pakistan.

Do a majority of Muslim countries follow these dictates? Hell no, quite the opposite.

So Shariah law goes against the Quran and you know more about the Quran and the Muslim faith than the 1.6 billion muslins throughout the world.

Fascinating. Tell me more.

As for defending Islam, might I suggest that you actually attend one of those universities you find so threatening? Your reading comprehension is severely lacking. I'll type it slowly, I AM AN ATHEIST. With the possible exception of Buddhism, which is more philosophy than religion, you wont catch me defending the tenets of any superstition. As far as I'm concerned, all three Abrahamic religions are backward and savage. All three have a tremendous amount of blood on their hands, both past and present.

And yet you are here defending Islam and attacking Christianity. That is a common leftist bias. One of the most idiotic ones.

Most of the times it is born of cowardice. You won't see Dawkins mocking Mohammed because he fears for his life, for instance. In your case it is derived from a fantastical and surreal view of the world that has no basis in reality.

No one ranting against the gheys, or women being treated as equals, quote the "new" testament.

Yes they do. You are apparently not familiar with the epistles written by Saint Paul.

Who do you think created the modern boundaries of these countries, purposely putting opposing groups against one another in order to insure instability? Who do you think invaded Iraq under false pretenses, all the while vomiting out religious platitudes and willfully ignoring the people who actually study the region, and told them -correctly it turns out- exactly what would happen if the did so? Who do you think paid the ransoms of idiots who willingly went into unstable war zones and got themselves captured, effectively funding groups like IS.. whatever the hell they're called? The governments who paid these ransoms are complicit in the deaths of thousands of innocents in the region. Men, women, and children, killed with guns and ammunition they paid for.

What message does this send to the people of the region? One of our lives is worth a thousand of yours? An ass backwards approach in the endeavor to win over hearts and minds.

Our governments have been trashing, and destabilizing the region for decades, all for our own means and ends, and not the betterment of its people. Yes, we did have a rather large hand in creating the environment that allowed this madness to take root, and we have a responsibility to help find a solution. If not for their sake, then for our own. The only one displaying complete and absolute ignorance of what goes on in the world, and more importantly, what caused it, is you.

Yes it is all our fault. We deserve to receive millions of muslim immigrants, give them homes and welfare cheques, tolerate them raping women with miniskirts and murdering cartoonists who draw mohammed(praise be upon him). Allahu akbar. Shariah law can't come soon enough.

The evil and opressive white man must be punished for his trespassings. Muslins are just innocent victims of the circunstances, forced to move into western lands and form terrorist cells so that they can use Ak-47's and C4 to murder civilians. It is all our fault. Those 12 murdered victims had it coming.

 

[FretRider]

Speaking of history, it was in part due to people bringing home ideas from the holy land after the crusades that women started to get a say in Europe..

Source please.

 

[Charlemagne3.0]

FretRider... You aren't even worth arguing with. You quote my posts, then proceed -with smug self satisfaction- to argue against points I never made. Arguing against straw men seems to be the only way you can win an argument.

Defending Islam? I've written in pretty much every post that the religion is in desperate need of its own Martin Luther, or John Calvin. In other words, reformation.

Oh, and your 'reverse discrimination poor oppressed white man" shtick is long past it's expiration date. What I actually wrote, is that our GOVERNMENTS actively participated in creating the environment that allowed the sick ideology of the extremist to take root.

Ultimately, the war of ideas can only be won from within, but we in the West have both a role, and responsibility to help create an environment where that can happen. Or do you seriously believe that IS, SL... whatever the hell they're called, would still be running wild if we'd left Iraq alone? Talk about living apart from reality.

By the way, those of your ilk are currently running around France throwing pig heads into mosque, harassing women wearing hijab, etc. You think all of this wont be up on the extremist websites? You think that it wont be used as an effective recruiting tool?

One of the things we need to do in order to discredit the sociopaths, is to take the moral high ground. This crap isn't helping. Fighting stupidity, with stupidity, has never been a winning strategy. This is especially true when the other sides imbeciles are wild eyed zealots with no respect for life, including their own.

Regardless, you win, I'm done. No point in my continuing the attempt to join the argument you're having with your straw friend. When you and your friend come up with an idea of how we can effectively fight the extremist, give me ring. If nothing else, it should be good for the luls.

 

[SpoonFULL]

Yes it is all our fault. We deserve to receive millions of muslim immigrants, give them homes and welfare cheques, tolerate them raping women with miniskirts and murdering cartoonists who draw mohammed(praise be upon him). Allahu akbar. Shariah law can't come soon enough.

Going back to topic, and not much familiar with history, but why do france have many north african immigrants (e.g. algerians)?

 

[FretRider]

Regardless, you win, I'm done. No point in my continuing the attempt to join the argument you're having with your straw friend. When you and your friend come up with an idea of how we can effectively fight the extremist, give me ring. If nothing else, it should be good for the luls.

Yeah, you were caught red-handed making shit up about Islam being "a superior abrahamic religion" because of its "humane treatment of women" and other such unnamable absurdities for a man who claims to be a student of history and knowledgeable about the subject.

I would be embarrassed and running away in shame if I were you too, so don't worry, do disappear without replying while throwing away offences and trying to save face.

 

[Pladio]

Going back to topic, and not much familiar with history, but why do france have many north african immigrants (e.g. algerians)?

One word:

Colonisation.

 

[Thrasher]

bingo...

 

[Charlemagne3.0]

Running away? Save face? No, more like tired of going back and forth with someone who has the reading comprehension of a four year old. Once again, you completely ignored my arguments, and made up your own to respond to.

You've contributed nothing of value to this conversation, all you've done is stroke your own weak and fragile ego. As I wrote before, you're a waste of time.

@SpoonFull

Like Pladio said, colonization. Some of these countries didn't gain independence until the mid - late sixties. A lot of what we're dealing with is the aftermath.