Baldur's Gate Noob Questions

That got me thinking. Is Baldur's Gate the ultimate RPG?

In many ways yes.

Back around 1990 these Advanced Dungeons & Dragons games just appeared out of no where and on my Amiga (with 1MB ram!) there was not a lot to compare them to. I had a couple of RPG games like Bards Tale, Faery Tale, but nothing with turn based tactical combat. Genres were less, or kinda not at all, defined back then. Games were just games to me. Initialisations like RTS, FPS, RPG didn't come until I finally got a Pentium with titles like Warcraft, Doom. But I never came across any PC RPGs. The Dark Sun games were probably around but its just not what the kids were swapping on the playground. In my life there were only a tiny amount of people who liked ADND games and they were very much special, almost secret games, for me.

Anyway, the thing about these games was you could take your party from the first game to the next. Pools of Radiance would let you import to Curse of the Azure bonds to Secret of the silver Blades. Champions of Krynn to Deathknights of Krynn to Dark Queen of Krynn. And they were really fucking hard! I had to borrow a Hintbook from a friend to get through Curse!

Pools was in Forgotten Realms setting, like BG is. So was Gateway to the Savage Frontier. Champions was in Dragonlance setting and I always liked those games the best.

Baldurs Gate was the last, the "ultimate", party based AD&D game which let you import your party… Even if it was just you main character.

When you wake up in BG2 a few of the "canon" party are caged with you and you're in a tutorial dungeon which feels very different to the open forests of birdcalls and hobgoblins in BG1. When you leave the dungeon you're back in a city, like the end of BG1, and could spend hours exploring it before you are given area maps by NPCs, but it's also kind of mentally draining. Overwhelming. You can't just exit a map on the east to discover a new area to the east any more, which changes the feeling of the game from new adventurers exploring and making their name to that of an experienced party who is in demand going on quests given to them. If they can find the time!

By the time you finish BG2 and its expansion your main character will be around level 40 with all manner of epic feats like whirlwind attacks and smites and that kinda left no room for a trilogy. There was nothing left in the old tabletop Monster Manual that you couldn't easily defeat.

BG3 was going to go back to early levels again but, tragically, it never got made.

And honourable mention should go to Neverwinter Nights which got a lot of play from me but it wasn't party based and felt like an entirely different game with its 3rd edition ruleset where BG games used the old pools/champions 2nd edition rules. And also it was sort of easy and nothing even scared you.

And on that note, Neverwinter Nights 2 was one of the most disappointing games I ever waited for.

I think little things about the 2nd edition rules, like clerics only using blunt weapons, were D&D to me and when 3rd edition let a cleric use any old weapon, if they got feats in it, the feeling of the game was changed. It really wasn't D&D anymore. And again while playing 4th edition rules in Neverwinter Online its just 100% not D&D. Not like it was. Dungeons and Dragons was dead.

What do you guys think? Do you think Baldur's Gate is the ultimate cRPG? Is there a game that tops it?

But the "essence" of those early games, the feeling I got while playing them, did reappear for me eventually. Clerics armed with maces, Knights picking up their Longsword +1 and shield. The challenge, the exploration and discovery, the unique treasure with its own lore, the despair when evil clerics would cast Slay Living on your character and make the DC instantly killing you, the confusion of where to go next (without using the Hintbook!).

Dark Souls!

Such as going from "goldbox" to BG1 recaptured that feeling of oldschool RPG gaming, which I thought was lost forever, and after the decline going from NWN to NWN2 to the pits of Neverwinter Online, Dark Souls brought back the old D&D magic that even D&D itself had forgotten.

If there ever was a game which topped the BG series this would be it.
 
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Sir James, I salute you!

Dark Souls is quite a catch indeed too.
I do think that it is legendary but not in the same vein as the BG series is to me but it's quite special in its own way.

A user here who's name I forget will advocate Wizardry VIII.
I tried it. It's ok but I didn't play it for long because it's tough and I suck…
Got my ass handed to me at Arnika road a few times then I gave up…
 
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Hmm. I'm a bit disappointed to hear the beginning of B2 is linear. I am still excited to play it, though.
Imho it's not a big deal. It's much like BG1 where Candlekeep is kind of your tutorial and you can't get out until you've done a few things. It's similar in BG2 though I must admit it takes more time.
After this first part the game really opens up giving you tons of different ways what to do next.

The thing that's always bugging me a bit with the beginnig of BG2 is that it's assumed your main char experienced the events from BG1 with the canonical party (Imoen, Khalid, Jaheira, Minsc and Dynaheir). There's no savegame carried over with decisions from BG1. (You keep your character of course with XP, stats and some gear).
Again it's not a big deal as you can easily ignore it and act as if you had other companions. It's not something that follows you through all of BG2.
 
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Once you exit the "tutorial" in BG2, can you go exploring the wilderness at will - like you can in BG?

Because when I played BG2, my impression was that I was locked into the city you enter - and that you couldn't go exploring the world?

If you can, indeed, go exploring the world - I might give it another shot soon - as that's exactly the kind of thing I love about these games.
 
Once you exit the "tutorial" in BG2, can you go exploring the wilderness at will - like you can in BG?

Because when I played BG2, my impression was that I was locked into the city you enter - and that you couldn't go exploring the world?

If you can, indeed, go exploring the world - I might give it another shot soon - as that's exactly the kind of thing I love about these games.

No, it's not like BG, but it's not linear either.

Other areas appear on the map after you receive quests from NPCs and you can get quite a few immediately. I was even somewhat overwhelmed by how many quests I had early on and the decisions of where to go first.
 
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Yes and No.

You can leave the city immediately but unlike BG1 where nearly all areas were accessible from the start, you need to get a hint or a quest from NPC to go to certain areas. But you will get a ton of hints and quests. This part of the game is extremly open and non-linear and in fact a huge part of the playtime is spent there.
After that part the game gets a little more linear, which is perfectly justified by the plot. Another good thing is that the player can decide when this part is over as it's a quite explicit action you need to take. So you can really enjoy this part of the game and take your time to do everything you want, like doing tons of sidequests, gather your party etc.
 
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I'm not saying there's anything wrong with a more linear structure, it's just down to personal preferences. So, I don't need any justification for it.

What you're describing sounds a lot more linear than BG, though - but I guess it depends on your own concept of linearity. I'm not a big fan of having to open up areas through NPCs or quests - because as a first time player, I'd have to spend time exploring and talking to everyone to open up stuff, where I prefer to just wander around the open world before picking whatever quest I happen to feel like.

But that's me.
 
I think you really need to try. The areas will open up while you explore. There's never a point in the game where I thoght: I don't have anything to explore left, so I need to find NPC you will open up the areas. It just happens.

I personally really dislike linearity but I've never felt constrained when playing BG2.
 
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I think you really need to try. The areas will open up while you explore. There's never a point in the game where I thoght: I don't have anything to explore left, so I need to find NPC you will open up the areas. It just happens.

I personally really dislike linearity but I've never felt constrained when playing BG2.

I will try it again ;)

I don't think you really understand what I'm talking about, though. It's not about not having something to explore - it's about feeling free to explore the world at will, without feeling artificially held back because of design limitations.

Not a lot of games really provide that, though.

If you've never felt constrained in BG2, maybe I'll change my mind about it ;)
 
It's not about not having something to explore - it's about feeling free to explore the world at will, without feeling artificially held back because of design limitations.
Ok, BG2 indeed has these limitations by design.
 
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In many ways yes.

Back around 1990 these Advanced Dungeons & Dragons games just appeared out of no where and on my Amiga (with 1MB ram!) there was not a lot to compare them to. I had a couple of RPG games like Bards Tale, Faery Tale, but nothing with turn based tactical combat. Genres were less, or kinda not at all, defined back then. Games were just games to me. Initialisations like RTS, FPS, RPG didn't come until I finally got a Pentium with titles like Warcraft, Doom. But I never came across any PC RPGs. The Dark Sun games were probably around but its just not what the kids were swapping on the playground. In my life there were only a tiny amount of people who liked ADND games and they were very much special, almost secret games, for me.

Anyway, the thing about these games was you could take your party from the first game to the next. Pools of Radiance would let you import to Curse of the Azure bonds to Secret of the silver Blades. Champions of Krynn to Deathknights of Krynn to Dark Queen of Krynn. And they were really fucking hard! I had to borrow a Hintbook from a friend to get through Curse!

Pools was in Forgotten Realms setting, like BG is. So was Gateway to the Savage Frontier. Champions was in Dragonlance setting and I always liked those games the best.

Baldurs Gate was the last, the "ultimate", party based AD&D game which let you import your party… Even if it was just you main character.

When you wake up in BG2 a few of the "canon" party are caged with you and you're in a tutorial dungeon which feels very different to the open forests of birdcalls and hobgoblins in BG1. When you leave the dungeon you're back in a city, like the end of BG1, and could spend hours exploring it before you are given area maps by NPCs, but it's also kind of mentally draining. Overwhelming. You can't just exit a map on the east to discover a new area to the east any more, which changes the feeling of the game from new adventurers exploring and making their name to that of an experienced party who is in demand going on quests given to them. If they can find the time!

By the time you finish BG2 and its expansion your main character will be around level 40 with all manner of epic feats like whirlwind attacks and smites and that kinda left no room for a trilogy. There was nothing left in the old tabletop Monster Manual that you couldn't easily defeat.

BG3 was going to go back to early levels again but, tragically, it never got made.

And honourable mention should go to Neverwinter Nights which got a lot of play from me but it wasn't party based and felt like an entirely different game with its 3rd edition ruleset where BG games used the old pools/champions 2nd edition rules. And also it was sort of easy and nothing even scared you.

And on that note, Neverwinter Nights 2 was one of the most disappointing games I ever waited for.

I think little things about the 2nd edition rules, like clerics only using blunt weapons, were D&D to me and when 3rd edition let a cleric use any old weapon, if they got feats in it, the feeling of the game was changed. It really wasn't D&D anymore. And again while playing 4th edition rules in Neverwinter Online its just 100% not D&D. Not like it was. Dungeons and Dragons was dead.



But the "essence" of those early games, the feeling I got while playing them, did reappear for me eventually. Clerics armed with maces, Knights picking up their Longsword +1 and shield. The challenge, the exploration and discovery, the unique treasure with its own lore, the despair when evil clerics would cast Slay Living on your character and make the DC instantly killing you, the confusion of where to go next (without using the Hintbook!).

Dark Souls!

Such as going from "goldbox" to BG1 recaptured that feeling of oldschool RPG gaming, which I thought was lost forever, and after the decline going from NWN to NWN2 to the pits of Neverwinter Online, Dark Souls brought back the old D&D magic that even D&D itself had forgotten.

If there ever was a game which topped the BG series this would be it.

Awesome! Thanks for sharing, man. I'll have to try Dark Souls sometime as well as the Gold Box games. So many games to try! Pool of Radiance really looks cool.
 
I will try it again ;)

I don't think you really understand what I'm talking about, though. It's not about not having something to explore - it's about feeling free to explore the world at will, without feeling artificially held back because of design limitations.

Not a lot of games really provide that, though.

If you've never felt constrained in BG2, maybe I'll change my mind about it ;)

It's really matter of preference. I never liked BG1 type of exploration as it feels more "aimless and lost" than "freedom". Each to their own :) I still think you should try out BG2 again, Dart.

I take it you also like BG2 more than BG1?

Correction. It is *the* best RPG for me ;) I've never enjoyed a game more than BG2, other RPGs all feel lacking something. It's just so epic, so much content, and so much passion in it :) Well, in my opinion, ofcourse. Others may disagree :)
 
Correction. It is *the* best RPG for me ;) I've never enjoyed a game more than BG2, other RPGs all feel lacking something. It's just so epic, so much content, and so much passion in it :) Well, in my opinion, ofcourse. Others may disagree :)

Good to hear. I think I'll play that game when I'm done with the first one :).
 
Good to hear. I think I'll play that game when I'm done with the first one :).
I've corrected some spelling errors. ;)
 
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I've corrected some spelling errors. ;)

Heh :).

Well, what I mean is, I usually like to try different things rather than play a series through from first to last game in succession. There's no doubt I will play BG2, but in normal circumstances I would play something else after BG1 just to have something different, then play BG2 at a later date. This game is appealing so much to me, though, that I will probably just go ahead and play the second game immediately after completing the first!

I think I mentioned it already, but I absolutely love the magic system in BG. I love how you gain new spell slots upon leveling up and I love the tactical approach to using spells in general. I agree 100%, no, 200% with Dart about preferring this tactical approach to magic over just spamming the same spells over and over. It makes you plan more for tough encounters and having a broad selection of spells for every occasion just makes it a great overall system.

Just stepped foot inside Baldur's Gate. I haven't been this excited to explore a city in an RPG in a long time! Even the bridge going to the city was epic :).
 
It's refreshing to see such excitement for the old classics. I'd have thought them harder to get into for players who're not used to that kind of game.

But it's great that you're discovering them for the first time, and I'd be envious if the memories of these games weren't so fresh in my mind. I think experiencing them upon release might have been more powerful, so there's no reason for envy - but it's really nice to hear about your delight with these games.

So, keep playing the classics Fluent ;)
 
As far as I remember isn't there a certain quest in BG1 that's timerelated?

Some joinable NPCs will leave the party if you promised to help them in a quest and then don't start it within a certain amount of time. I remember that guy Coran who wants you to help him kill a wyvern is one of those instances.
 
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It's refreshing to see such excitement for the old classics. I'd have thought them harder to get into for players who're not used to that kind of game.

But it's great that you're discovering them for the first time, and I'd be envious if the memories of these games weren't so fresh in my mind. I think experiencing them upon release might have been more powerful, so there's no reason for envy - but it's really nice to hear about your delight with these games.

So, keep playing the classics Fluent ;)

I plan on it! :). I have been having a great time with these classic games. They may be harder to get into for your average person, but I'm such an RPG fanatic that they are no problem for me. Well, once I learn the game rules and stuff :). It's been easy sailing pretty much the whole time I've been playing BG.

Another interesting thing I find about this game is that it takes some 40 hours of gameplay before you even get to the big city the game is named after! Well, Steam says I've played 46 hours and some of that has been AFK time, so I'm guesstimating that 40 or so hours was when I first stepped into the city.

I can't ever recall a game saving the giant city for this late in the game.

As far as I remeber isn't there a certain quest in BG1 that's timerelated?

There's a few of them that I've found so far.
 
It's refreshing to see such excitement for the old classics. I'd have thought them harder to get into for players who're not used to that kind of game.

I think BG 1/2 stands up well even today. It has a charm about it that will always be there. I only played it for the first time a few years ago and loved it to bits. Obviously you need to have some interest in rpgs but other than that I don't think it's age is a factor really. It's interesting to compare BG to Mass Effect 3 for example to see the journey Bioware have taken. The stuff they considered worth keeping and the stuff they considered needed to be streamlined to bring in new non rpg type players. Financially it worked but in other ways it is a sad decline really.
 
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