DArtagnan is he banned?

[dteowner]

Knowing DArt, he's just going to take the 10 days off of RPGWatch and will be back after that time. Of course, he could just decide that the site isn't worth his time anymore and leave forever. Several of our longtime posters have left in the last couple years. I think I'd actually miss DArt if that were to happen

Just to clarify, a yellow card does not equal 10 days off. It is a one point "penalty" against your account. It takes 50 points to get banned. The 10 day thing is an expiration on that "penalty"--so after 10 days DArt's "score" will go from 1 back to 0.

There's really two stories to address here.

First, as Gorath has stated, the warning was issued not for what he said, not for how he chose to say it, but for continuing to say it after politely being asked to stop. DArt's point had been made with the clarity he always shows and further conversation was really unnecessary and most likely going to become counterproductive. No biggie. For those concerned about the philosophical implications of the warning, I'd ask you to address how you'd have done it differently. Seems pretty textbook to me- the moderator made a polite request which wasn't followed. Step two is a yellow card, which at the end of the day is practically meaningless when you get right down to it. Step three would probably involve a temporary suspension (we've had such little need for this sort of thing that I don't know that we've got an "official" step 3...) and step 4 would presumably involve a ban. Seems fairly mundane to me, so I'm a little surprised by the uproar. So rather than rail against the injustice of it all, if you've got a better answer, feel free to offer it.

Second story I think I'll leave alone. It's been fleshed out fairly well already, me thinks.

 

[Ripper]

So rather than rail against the injustice of it all, if you've got a better answer, feel free to offer it.

I don't see much of an "uproar" or "railing against injustice".

As for an answer, I think I've already spelled mine out - don't allow personal donation-seeking threads as a matter of policy, and if you do, then accept the strong criticism that might follow, unless it turns into abuse.

In particular, avoid moderators seeking personal donations, and then other moderators sanctioning people for critical responses, which looks terrible.

 

[Pladio]

I have no idea what happened, but a warning does not sound like a bad thing. It's not a ban, it doesn't do much ...

 

[lackblogger]

Just to clarify, a yellow card does not equal 10 days off. It is a one point "penalty" against your account. It takes 50 points to get banned. The 10 day thing is an expiration on that "penalty"—so after 10 days DArt's "score" will go from 1 back to 0.

50!!!!!!!!!!!?

You sure that's not a typo for 5?

Who on earth would stack up 50 Yellow Cards in 10 days?

Even the vilest splurger would get the hint after 3 or 4 in a few days...?

 

[Corwin]

It's 50 points for a ban and it's possible to get 50 points in one hit. Spambots, for example get an instant 50 point hit and are banned immediately. Other than spammers, we bend over backwards NOT to ban people if at all possible. Mind you, there have been a couple who have defied us and dared us to ban them, so we've obliged, but it's our option of last resort!!

 

[Ripper]

Yeah, just to be clear, it's not people getting banned that's a concern - it's more about not breeding resentments and frustration that will make people less keen to participate.

 

[CelticFrost]

I still come back to the real issue. This site had a mod that is always asking for this or that. People asked for the option to put a mod on their ignore list that didn't happen.

People that didn't even comment other threads of this person were making fun of them asking for someone to give them a hard drive.

If this site is not willing to put in place a rule of people not being able to beg on a street corner. Then why should anyone receive any sort of punishment for voicing their lack of liking this sort of practice.

The way I see it a Dart has a ton to add no matter if people like him or not and I am not a huge fan of him sometimes. Was carded for standing up for what a lot of feel about one persons self righteous belief that this site is his personal bank.

I am willing to bet that if any other member was to post a link to a site for money to help their child, dog etc with out his track record it would have been an overwhelming showing of support.

It is always a shame when ONE can ruin it for ALL.

 

[CelticFrost]

The Boy Who Cried Wolf
letter B
There once was a shepherd boy who was bored as he sat on the hillside watching the village sheep. To amuse himself he took a great breath and sang out, "Wolf! Wolf! The Wolf is chasing the sheep!"

The villagers came running up the hill to help the boy drive the wolf away. But when they arrived at the top of the hill, they found no wolf. The boy laughed at the sight of their angry faces.

"Don't cry 'wolf', shepherd boy," said the villagers, "when there's no wolf!" They went grumbling back down the hill.

Later, the boy sang out again, "Wolf! Wolf! The wolf is chasing the sheep!" To his naughty delight, he watched the villagers run up the hill to help him drive the wolf away.

When the villagers saw no wolf they sternly said, "Save your frightened song for when there is really something wrong! Don't cry 'wolf' when there is NO wolf!"

But the boy just grinned and watched them go grumbling down the hill once more.

Later, he saw a REAL wolf prowling about his flock. Alarmed, he leaped to his feet and sang out as loudly as he could, "Wolf! Wolf!"

But the villagers thought he was trying to fool them again, and so they didn't come.

At sunset, everyone wondered why the shepherd boy hadn't returned to the village with their sheep. They went up the hill to find the boy. They found him weeping.

"There really was a wolf here! The flock has scattered! I cried out, "Wolf!" Why didn't you come?"

An old man tried to comfort the boy as they walked back to the village.

"We'll help you look for the lost sheep in the morning," he said, putting his arm around the youth, "Nobody believes a liar...even when he is telling the truth!"

 

[dteowner]

In particular, avoid moderators seeking personal donations, and then other moderators sanctioning people for critical responses, which looks terrible.

Once again, you're mis-stating what actually happened. DArt was not sanctioned for a critical response. This has been clearly stated about a dozen times now by several different people.

As I mentioned, I'm only addressing one side of this pancake since I wouldn't want my personal position to be seen as "site official" due to my role here.

 

[Corwin]

Personally, I don't like anyone posting threads asking for money, and as someone who lives on a part old age pension, I could easily do so. However, this is a public forum and there are currently no rules against people doing that. If sufficient people think it's wrong, then PM Myrthos, the site owner and let him know, but the final decision will always be his. Now, can we let this issue drop.

 

[txa1265]

I thought the idea was to put this stuff into you sig, not full threads?

Oh well ... either way I entirely agree with what DTE and Corwin and Gorath have noted. Personally I have handed out a few 'infractions' recently. None of us are perfect, and occasionally we all fail to STFU when asked

 

[crpgnut]

I am perfect! Well...perfectly nutty

 

[DArtagnan]

I'm not banned, no

I just had a few days off, and I wanted to spend them on something other than the Watch. Believe it or not, I really don't enjoy bickering with people. I just feel compelled to speak my mind too often - even when it goes against my better judgment. Silly, I know, but I'm flawed.

I'm genuinely surprised that someone noticed I was gone - and even a bit touched

As for the discussion related to the Fluent thread in question, I noticed I'd received a warning - but I don't really pay attention to such things.

I'm 100% ok with it if my comments result in a ban, because this isn't my site - and moderators have to do what they think is right. I understand that.

I always try to act as I think is fair and appropriate, and I apologize if and when I see myself getting out of line. I've done that several times before, and I don't mind doing it a million times more - if the occasions rise.

I think it's fair to say that I'm not "polite" or "pleasant" compared to the average online persona around here - but that's because I think being polite or pleasant when it gets in the way of clear speaking is a sickness that destroys communication. I know I won't get a lot of people to agree with me on that, but I really do believe in that approach.

So, in this case, I don't intend to apologize or regulate my behavior.

I simply didn't agree with Gorath that this was about assaulting Fluent's character. I believe I've made it clear several times that I actually like Fluent, I just don't think he's leading a healthy life. That's personal, sure, but the thread was highly personal and he's deliberately involved the Watch in his personal life many times before. You can't expect people to stay non-personal in their advice when it's such a personal situation. I don't think that's fair or reasonable.

In my world, creating a personal thread doesn't mean you get to call the shots when it comes to the responses. If you get critical responses involving reference to personal details that you've deliberately revealed, then that's to be expected.

Fluent calls us all nothing but trolls and thinks we're Codexian negative people, because we questioned his approach to getting bills paid.

I won't even go into what he called me.

So, he's really the one making personal attacks - and he's done so before.

Personally, I couldn't care less about personal attacks or name-calling, it's just not productive.

Do note that this isn't a "discussion" about moderator policies. I honestly don't care. I'm here on the Watch because I like the general atmosphere - and I like most of the people here.

Again, it's not my site - and I have no business trying to change this kind of favoritism. We're all human - and I've rubbed a lot of people the wrong way over the years. I'm kinda shocked I'm not banned already, really

This is just me making my position clear, given there's an actual thread about it.

 

[pibbur who]

Good to have you back!!!

Pibbur who like many watcher did notice that the musketeer wasn't present.

 

[GothicGothicness]

I'm not banned, no

I just had a few days off, and I wanted to spend them on something other than the Watch. Believe it or not, I really don't enjoy bickering with people. I just feel compelled to speak my mind too often - even when it goes against my better judgment. Silly, I know, but I'm flawed.

I'm genuinely surprised that someone noticed I was gone - and even a bit touched

As for the discussion related to the Fluent thread in question, I noticed I'd received a warning - but I don't really pay attention to such things.

I'm 100% ok with it if my comments result in a ban, because this isn't my site - and moderators have to do what they think is right. I understand that.

I always try to act as I think is fair and appropriate, and I apologize if and when I see myself getting out of line. I've done that several times before, and I don't mind doing it a million times more - if the occasions rise.

I think it's fair to say that I'm not "polite" or "pleasant" compared to the average online persona around here - but that's because I think being polite or pleasant when it gets in the way of clear speaking is a sickness that destroys communication. I know I won't get a lot of people to agree with me on that, but I really do believe in that approach.

So, in this case, I don't intend to apologize or regulate my behavior.

I simply didn't agree with Gorath that this was about assaulting Fluent's character. I believe I've made it clear several times that I actually like Fluent, I just don't think he's leading a healthy life. That's personal, sure, but the thread was highly personal and he's deliberately involved the Watch in his personal life many times before. You can't expect people to stay non-personal in their advice when it's such a personal situation. I don't think that's fair or reasonable.

In my world, creating a personal thread doesn't mean you get to call the shots when it comes to the responses. If you get critical responses involving reference to personal details that you've deliberately revealed, then that's to be expected.

Fluent calls us all nothing but trolls and thinks we're Codexian negative people, because we questioned his approach to getting bills paid.

I won't even go into what he called me.

So, he's really the one making personal attacks - and he's done so before.

Personally, I couldn't care less about personal attacks or name-calling, it's just not productive.

Do note that this isn't a "discussion" about moderator policies. I honestly don't care. I'm here on the Watch because I like the general atmosphere - and I like most of the people here.

Again, it's not my site - and I have no business trying to change this kind of favoritism. We're all human - and I've rubbed a lot of people the wrong way over the years. I'm kinda shocked I'm not banned already, really

This is just me making my position clear, given there's an actual thread about it.

The place does feel a bit empty when you are not here... so I guess people notice it..

I guess a lot of people appreciate someone who is honest and direct. I am like that too! I think it is tough to communicate with people who always say things so politely you cannot clearly understand what they want to say.

 

[pibbur who]

The place does feel a bit empty when you are not here… so I guess people notice it..

I guess a lot of people appreciate someone who is honest and direct. I am like that too! I think it is tough to communicate with people who always say things so politely you cannot clearly understand what they want to say.

A diplomat is someone who can tell you to go to hell in a way that makes you look forward to the ride.

Pibbur who isn't sure what GG means by this post

 

[DArtagnan]

I think if you can get someone to look forward to going to hell, then it's because you've failed to deliver your message honestly - and the person in question doesn't actually know the truth of the destination.

Some people prefer to avoid the negative consequences of being honest - and, believe me, they're very significant on occasion.

It really comes down to whether you're willing to sacrifice being liked for being honest. You can be respected for honesty, yes, but a lot of people will dislike you. That's the price. The upside is that a few will tend to admire you for it. If that sort of thing is important to you.

I can certainly appreciate that a lot of people are NOT willing to sacrifice that - and I know that a lot of people tell themselves that it's possible to be fully honest without actually hurting people.

The reason that's not possible, is that we've established a social norm where reality is something nasty and best avoided - and we've chosen to collectively ignore it for the sake of pleasant interaction.

I truly believe that the horror of reality can be managed if faced often enough - and with open eyes. The reason to go that way is that the horror of reality is much, much worse when it can no longer be ignored. It tends to catch up almost no matter what.

All the pleasant deliveries of almost-truths won't have helped much when the receiver finally wakes up.

That said, I also believe it's fully possible to live an entire life in a state of unreality - and I guess I have no rational argument against that approach - if you don't actually care about truth.

 

[pibbur who]

It's an interesting view, and worth considering.. Here and now I think you're sometimes more brutal than necessary. No doubt partly because I tend to be too polite, and therefore guilty of GG's charges.

Pibbur who thinks something between the musketeer and the pibbur would be the ideal … wossname (for lack of the proper English word).

 

[DArtagnan]

It's an interesting view, and worth considering.. Here and now I think you're sometimes more brutal than necessary. No doubt partly because I tend to be too polite, and to some degree guilty of GG's charges.

Pibbur who thinks something between the musketeer and the pibbur would be the ideal … wossname (for lack of the English word).

I think you're right, that I'm sometimes, or even often, more brutal than necessary.

But you should also consider that it's very, very hard to guage exactly what it takes to get the honest message across to a person on the Internet.

That's why I tend to "overdo" it, because I'd MUCH rather risk being too brutal than not being clear enough.

If I had some way of being certain that I could get my message across without any kind of doubt as to its content - and AVOID hurting people, I'd be doing nothing but that. I'd be a pretty cruel person, otherwise.

I'd much rather hurt someone in an effort to help, than spare feelings and "hope" for the best. The end result is everything - and while I sometimes can't help but hurt myself when enough people end up disliking me for being so brutal in public, it's a price I've chosen to pay - because I prefer trying to contribute over trying to remain popular.

But that's my approach, nothing more.

 

[Ripper]

Once again, you're mis-stating what actually happened. DArt was not sanctioned for a critical response. This has been clearly stated about a dozen times now by several different people.

Yes, it has been stated several times since, but it does not tally with what was said if you read the original thread:

It's for the whole thread, not just that post in particular. It has to be attached somewhere.

Look, I'm not trying to give Gorath a hard time, or make a bigger deal of this than it is. My point is that the problem keeps occurring, and in this case a member got a warning for his postings, when in fact the moderator who was being criticised was being more aggressive.

Sometimes admin action has to be taken to keep things under control. I'm just saying that it would be better to put the constraint on the donation-seeking threads themselves, rather than on the member's responses.