Fallout 3 - Review Roundup #2

[Alrik Fassbauer]

I can only state that the discussion here is already *very* heated.

 

[nessosin]

Is English your native language? What part about 'taking your argument to the proper thread' did you not understand?

No, its not. Sue me. And stop being more saint than a saint.

I've seen many videos from FO3 and from what I've seenit could be fun. I'm glad that they (Beth) didnt use dialogue system from TES, though I've seen better written dialogue. I also appreciate that there are skill checks. Also music from what I've heard is fitting. What I dont like its VATS, which clearly is a cheat mode from my point of view. AI seemed to be weak and seriously they could put more work in animation field. But my oppinion is based solely on official videos released, videos placed on Youtube and streams from leaked version. Seems more of my type of a game than previous creation from Bethesda Softworks.

 

[BillSeurer]

So why do you get to define what a cRPG is? Chance are I've played more of them for far longer than you have, heck, I even wrote a couple, but I am not going to try to define them. As I said earlier just because you don't like something doesn't mean it isn't good (and vice-versa, too).

Ultima (no number, the original) is a cRPG. Wizardry is a cRPG. Planescape is a cRPG. Gothic is a cRPG. Oblivion is a cRPG. Fallout 3 is a cRPG. Even Diablo is. Live with it.

Back to FO3.

If VATs is a cheat mode than was the targeting system in FO 1/2 a cheat mode? It's effectively the same thing.

 

[nessosin]

So why do you get to define what a cRPG is? Chance are I've played more of them for far longer than you have, heck, I even wrote a couple, but I am not going to try to define them. As I said earlier just because you don't like something doesn't mean it isn't good (and vice-versa, too).

Ultima (no number, the original) is a cRPG. Wizardry is a cRPG. Planescape is a cRPG. Gothic is a cRPG. Oblivion is a cRPG. Fallout 3 is a cRPG. Even Diablo is. Live with it.

Back to FO3.

If VATs is a cheat mode than was the targeting system in FO 1/2 a cheat mode? It's effectively the same thing.

I did not defined what is a cRPG and what's not. I just asked those who liked Oblivion what RPG qualities it posesses. And still nobody answered me, but on the other hand you keep telling me I should accept your point of view, period. Is that so hard to define top qualities of "the best cRPG ever"?

And to answer to your VATS question. Chances are that you indeed played more and better cRPGs in your life. And there are also chances that you had just forgotten how targeting system in FO 1 and 2 worked. So as to remind you or clarify if you hadn't had the pleasure to play them I'll try to explain the difference to you.

Targeting in previous FO was somehow balanced. It didnt stop the time so that you could hit 5 headshots in a row, it costed you even more action points than normal action and your chances for succesfull hit was sometimes lower than in normal action. VATS on the other hand. Let me quote VD:

Strength 5, Melee 15. In Fallout 1 that would mean a painful death. In Fallout 3 that means 94% chance to hit in VATS mode.

Do you see the difference now?

 

[rune_74]

You qouting VD makes any of your other arguements worthless. He has a huge axe to grind with that game, he has posted conversations out of context to make them look bad and he has generally lied. So if that makes it better to believe him, it shows that you as well have an axe to grind.

 

[nessosin]

So do you deny that a character with 15 Melee 5 Strength has 94% chance to hit in VATS?

Also it doesn't change the fact that I've seen many times the way VATS works.
Time stops, you pick opponent head as a target and then bam, bam, bam, bam, bam...bam, multiply headshots with no chances of your opponent to retaliate. And you're telling me it's not a cheat mode?

 

[BillSeurer]

So do you deny that a character with 15 Melee 5 Strength has 94% chance to hit in VATS?

I have no idea and unless I could duplicate the exact situation (What equipment? What foe? What other stats? What were their placement? Any combat drugs involved?) I still will have no idea.

Also it doesn't change the fact that I've seen many times the way VATS works.
Time stops, you pick opponent head as a target and then bam, bam, bam, bam, bam...bam, multiply headshots with no chances of your opponent to retaliate. And you're telling me it's not a cheat mode?

You appear to be confused because what you say is JUST NOT TRUE. VATS pauses the game, lets you queue some actions, and then when you say go everything INCLUDING THE BAD GUYS start up again. They keep shooting and moving even while your queued VATS actions are going off. The rest of the world does not freeze except while you are deciding what to do.

 

[Thaurin]

Hi! I thought I'd post my own experiences with the game, as I usually do on another forum that's a lot more personal. It keeps track of my personal emotions and stuff, it could be useful to you. It's unfinished and only takes me through about 3 of 4 hours of the game. Here we go.

I bought Fallout 3! (Oh, and Tomb Raider: Legend--for 6 big ones!) FO3 is looking awesome so far. Fantastic atmosphere. I especially like the bars in Megaton. I wish bars like that existed in our world.

I suppose comparisons with Oblivion are unavoidable. Where Oblivion's introductory dungeon was pretty bad (sucked even), the one used in Fallout 3 that determines who you'll be, what you'll look like and what your stats will be like is simply one of the best experiences I've ever had the joy to play through. It's not a chore, like most of these things. I just want to see what happens next; and it's all just part of learning how the game works and creating your character. Awesome.

I think I've spoiled too much of this game before even playing it with reading too much about it. That seems to become too much of a problem with big hype releases these days. I've known about certain events happening before I even started and I know about some to come, even. That affects your wow-factor and nothing can't bring it back. So I hope I do not hint at something that might give away a feeling like that, because this game provides it--most certainly if you like post-apocalyptic settings.

After stepping outside the vault, the desolation when you step out into the wastelands... you need to realize that this was nuclear war. There are scattered radio stations playing jaded '50s music and reporting of bleak news, trying to sound optimistic. One of the greatest things I encountered was a certain sign overlooking desolate horizon of destruction. You'll know when you see it.

I need to find some place to go. Anywhere will do. Anywhere with life.

...and then you find it. When you do, you realize that exploration and talking to the people around (I'm loathe to call them NPCs right now) is a vastly more interesting experience compared to Oblivion. It's less... generic. Genericness only makes itself known after so many hours of gameplay, naturally, but that's the feeling right now. Life amongst a total desolate landscape. Who'd have thought it took Bethesda that to make something life-like.

Also striking is the language used. Curse words are not taboo here, and I've even seen (if only in gameplay videos) children cuss. That's not special to me, but it is to the gaming industry and it makes me feel more investesd. It's more authentic, if used right. I get less the feeling that I'm in a cartoon and more that I'm in a hard-knock world that's totally fucked up by radiation and goddamn war. It's great.

I've heard someone call it Gothic With Guns, which seems fitting so far. But we'll see. Bethesda is sure to slip up... somewhere.

 

[BillSeurer]

I did not defined what is a cRPG and what's not. I just asked those who liked Oblivion what RPG qualities it posesses. And still nobody answered me, but on the other hand you keep telling me I should accept your point of view, period. Is that so hard to define top qualities of "the best cRPG ever"?

First off I never said it was the best RPG ever. Whoever did obviously likes it a lot and more power to him/her.

As for what RPG qualities Oblivion possesses we first need to ask what is a cRPG? I try to always be careful to stick the c in front of RPG when talking about the computer games because they, all of them, every single last one, are fundamentally and incredibly limited without having a live person running the game like a normal table top RPG. I played Wizardry 1 and Ultima 1 and considered them to be cRPGs (and AWESOME, too) at the time. By modern standards they are very simple cRPGs but cRPGs none-the-less.

The one thing that (IMO) a cRPG must have in order to distinguish itself from other games is a character (or characters) that you use to play a role on a personal level and some sort of way (numbers, words, whatever) to distinguish your character's abilities from others. That is fundamental in the history of table RPGs, too. After that it gets murkier. Some sort of conflict? That is fundamental to the concept of game and so doesn't help. Story? It's good to have but not necessary, at least not a total game one (re: Darklands). Choice in character? Also good to have but not necessary (re: Planescape). Change (growth) in the character's abilities? Every cRPG I can think of does this but some table top ones don't so it's also not necessary. Equipment to fiddle with? I can't think of any that don't but I can imagine not needing it. Affecting the story? No cRPG handles this very well because of the inherent limits of the medium. But, heck, a lot of table top RPG sessions probably don't either.

It's not so easy to define. There are many games that contain most of the common elements of cRPGs but, well, just don't seem to be RPGs. Look at the Heroes of Might and Magic games. Some of them have everything in the above list (and more) but most people wouldn't classify them as RPGs.

If you think it has Oblivion has *no* RPG qualities then you must have a very narrow definition. What qualities do you think that a computer game must have before it can be considered to be an RPG?

And to answer to your VATS question. Chances are that you indeed played more and better cRPGs in your life. And there are also chances that you had just forgotten how targeting system in FO 1 and 2 worked. So as to remind you or clarify if you hadn't had the pleasure to play them I'll try to explain the difference to you.

Targeting in previous FO was somehow balanced. It didnt stop the time so that you could hit 5 headshots in a row, it costed you even more action points than normal action and your chances for succesfull hit was sometimes lower than in normal action. VATS on the other hand. Let me quote VD:

Do you see the difference now?

Nope. Chances for a normal hit in FO 1/2 were identical as for aimed torso shots IIRC.

 

[Thaurin]

I agree so much to this last post, but I don't have time to expand. Just saying.

 

[Dhruin]

I just asked those who liked Oblivion what RPG qualities it posesses. And still nobody answered me, but on the other hand you keep telling me I should accept your point of view, period.

I answered. As I said, you may not agree (and it's not my cup of tea) but being able to pick flowers by the seashore (or decorate your house, or sneak around towns murdering people at night or ignore the plot/quests entirely and only explore dungeons etc etc) is exactly what some people are looking for. So, Oblivion offers an open framework that some players can use to fashion their own roleplaying experience, rather than following the designers' specific story. I loved NWN2: MotB, for instance - excellent CRPG - but not much to do if you don't want to follow the story.

So do you deny that a character with 15 Melee 5 Strength has 94% chance to hit in VATS?

Also it doesn't change the fact that I've seen many times the way VATS works.
Time stops, you pick opponent head as a target and then bam, bam, bam, bam, bam...bam, multiply headshots with no chances of your opponent to retaliate. And you're telling me it's not a cheat mode?

I'm not convinced VATS is great yet but... the chance to hit is also governed by the proximity. Over a distance, I might get <20%...when they are standing 1 foot away, yeah, 94%.

With the bam, bam, bam - if I had enough APs to get multiple attacks in Fallout, did the enemy get to retaliate in the middle? No.

 

[nessosin]

First off I never said it was the best RPG ever. Whoever did obviously likes it a lot and more power to him/her.

As for what RPG qualities Oblivion possesses we first need to ask what is a cRPG? I try to always be careful to stick the c in front of RPG when talking about the computer games because they, all of them, every single last one, are fundamentally and incredibly limited without having a live person running the game like a normal table top RPG. I played Wizardry 1 and Ultima 1 and considered them to be cRPGs (and AWESOME, too) at the time. By modern standards they are very simple cRPGs but cRPGs none-the-less.

The one thing that (IMO) a cRPG must have in order to distinguish itself from other games is a character (or characters) that you use to play a role on a personal level and some sort of way (numbers, words, whatever) to distinguish your character's abilities from others. That is fundamental in the history of table RPGs, too. After that it gets murkier. Some sort of conflict? That is fundamental to the concept of game and so doesn't help. Story? It's good to have but not necessary, at least not a total game one (re: Darklands). Choice in character? Also good to have but not necessary (re: Planescape). Change (growth) in the character's abilities? Every cRPG I can think of does this but some table top ones don't so it's also not necessary. Equipment to fiddle with? I can't think of any that don't but I can imagine not needing it. Affecting the story? No cRPG handles this very well because of the inherent limits of the medium. But, heck, a lot of table top RPG sessions probably don't either.

It's not so easy to define. There are many games that contain most of the common elements of cRPGs but, well, just don't seem to be RPGs. Look at the Heroes of Might and Magic games. Some of them have everything in the above list (and more) but most people wouldn't classify them as RPGs.

If you think it has Oblivion has *no* RPG qualities then you must have a very narrow definition. What qualities do you think that a computer game must have before it can be considered to be an RPG?

Nope. Chances for a normal hit in FO 1/2 were identical as for aimed torso shots IIRC.

Re: Oblivion

So you elaborated what qualities you like to have in your cRPGs, but still you haven't answered my question. Is that because Oblivion possesses all those qualities, but at the same time everyone of them is done in a very medicore way? And comment "best cRPG ever" wasnt aimed at you, but at a large crowd of gamers who share this oppinion.

Re FO/FO2/FO3

I didnt make myself clear. I meant that targeting any other part of opponents body than the biggest one has a less chance to hit. My bad.

Re BillSeurer

Indeed you are right. But then again VATS gives you bigger advantage than targeting. From what I've seen you are able to perform many more called shots than you would have been able to make in previous games in your turn. Also it seems to me that Player actions in VATS is faster than NPCs, but maybe I am just mistaken.

Edit to answer Dhruin:

Yeap, you did. But you said it yourself that is not you cup of tea. So my question was rather aimed at those who liked the game as a cRPG experience. But dwelling deeper into the 'picking flowers by the seashore' philosophy shouldn't this kind of roleplaying also be believable? And if yes does Oblivion do a good job at that? If I want to be a healer can I heal people and will they pay me for my services? Will they thank me? Will they even recognise I just cast a healing spell on them? So can I say that Oblivion created believable world where I can pick my herbs? That's where my problem with TES4 lie, the world doesnt react to my action. And if it does, it does it on the most primitive level, like attacking me when I kill someone. If I am a silent killer, wondering through night and killing innocent citizens and I am not seen then no one will try to investigate the case.

 

[mbuddha]

My early impressions so far:

After a few annoying crashing bugs (then updated my video driver and turned off A/A samples, not sure which or both stopped the crashing), I find it to be a fun game. I'm only at the first town, but I particularly like the NPCs so far, they seem much more real than those found in Oblivion, and the dialog and variety of voices are much improved. I like seeing [SPEECH 24%] conversation options and hope this trend continues throughout the game and is effective.

Bethesda is really good at first impressions however, so hopefully the rest of the game continues to hold my interest. I remember really enjoying Oblivion at first, there is an excellent sense of freedom, which lends itself to role playing the WORLD, not so much the STORY.

(Dhruin)...[to some players,] being able to step into the gameworld, completely ignore the main quest (or any quest, for that matter) and say "today, Aldon Axeblade wants to pick flowers by the seashore" is exactly what roleplaying is all about.

Very well said. However for me that kind of roleplaying started to get old in Oblivion, and there seemed to be much repetition in the dungeons and especially the hell gates. I kept playing it for a little while after creating alternative music and then just lost interest.

Gothic 2 was able to provide both types of roleplaying that I'm referring to: the story and the open world.

Here's hoping FO3 will do the same, or close. A promising start IMO.

 

[rune_74]

Like I said anything and I medan anything VD has to say about FO3 I would take with a grain of salt the guy is on a mission here. I wonder how he would feel if someone picks apart his little game when he releases it. If you want to you could do that to any game.

Look we really get it, you hated oblivion and it was not an rpg for you.....so what? What do you want from us?

Dhruin answered your question with regards to the vats system....so what he gets 95% how do you know it does the same damage? all the variables leading up to that....do you know them? (nope and thats the way VD likes it, he has always been that way.)

 

[nessosin]

Like I said anything and I medan anything VD has to say about FO3 I would take with a grain of salt the guy is on a mission here. I wonder how he would feel if someone picks apart his little game when he releases it. If you want to you could do that to any game.

Well, I'm trying to figure out. At the moment, based on my current impressions (!), it looks like it's a pretty good game overall. Again, keep in mind that I'm still at the early stages of the game.

The fact that it was supposed to be a Fallout game constantly gets in the way and requires a mental block to ignore. It's hard not to compare the game to Fallout and develop a negative impression because everything is inferior (character system, quests, characters, dialogues, combat, etc). That's on one hand.

On the other hand, comparing FO3 to, say, beloved by many Gothic results in a favorable impression. While Gothic is incredibly atmospheric and allows you to side with whoever you want, the character system is simple and often broken, dialogue options are practically non-existent, translated German leaves much to be desired, combat is flawed, and you won't find any depth in quests.

So, the real, unbiased question here is - how does Bethesda PA game compare to similar games not to venerable and completely different Fallout? Comparing it to Fallout is like comparing it to PST. Predictable and serves no purpose other than bitching about Bethesda unwillingness and inability to do "what they don't do well".

Yeap you're right, he pretty much levels the game with ground. He is so biased!

Look we really get it, you hated oblivion and it was not an rpg for you.....so what? What do you want from us?

I dont want anything from you, I just asked question, if you are in a mood to lead a conversation about OB thats great, if not then nobody will punish you for that.

so what he gets 95% how do you know it does the same damage? all the variables leading up to that....do you know them? (nope and thats the way VD likes it, he has always been that way.)

To be honest I dont know to what are you refering with "it does the same damage". As for numbers I think I clearly wrote VD had 5 Strength and 15 skillpoints in Melee. It seems to me that you are the one who's biased towards VD.

 

[Dhruin]

But dwelling deeper into the 'picking flowers by the seashore' philosophy shouldn't this kind of roleplaying also be believable? And if yes does Oblivion do a good job at that? If I want to be a healer can I heal people and will they pay me for my services? Will they thank me? Will they even recognise I just cast a healing spell on them? So can I say that Oblivion created believable world where I can pick my herbs? That's where my problem with TES4 lie, the world doesnt react to my action. And if it does, it does it on the most primitive level, like attacking me when I kill someone. If I am a silent killer, wondering through night and killing innocent citizens and I am not seen then no one will try to investigate the case.

Sure, but now we're talking about something else rather than "it's not an RPG". There are unlimited things they could do better - I don't know how feasible it is (or isn't) with the reality of limited development resources. I's sure like them to focus on some different things - but I'm not really their target market. Can you think of another game that does a better job at those things? I can't.

I'm a big fan of space sims. There simply isn't a perfect sim that gives me everything I want: continuous universe, newtonian physics, dynamic trading, fleet management, planet landings etc. That doesn't mean I say no space sims exist because they are all lacking in some way or another.

 

[rune_74]

I think this is getting way out of hand. For the record you qouted the one somewhat nice thing had to say about the game...10 pages came before that comment. That comment doesn't even come across as him thinking its a pretty good FALLOUT game....and thats really the point right?

Play the game, have fun. If not who cares right?

 

[nessosin]

Sure, but now we're talking about something else rather than "it's not an RPG". There are unlimited things they could do better - I don't know how feasible it is (or isn't) with the reality of limited development resources. I's sure like them to focus on some different things - but I'm not really their target market. Can you think of another game that does a better job at those things? I can't.

I'm a big fan of space sims. There simply isn't a perfect sim that gives me everything I want: continuous universe, newtonian physics, dynamic trading, fleet management, planet landings etc. That doesn't mean I say no space sims exist because they are all lacking in some way or another.

Do notice Dhruin that I never stated that Oblivion is not an cRPG. I just said it's not a good one. You are right I cannot come up with any other game which gives me this kind of freedom as Oblivion does. But the fact that it's probably best in its category doesn't mean it's a good RPG.

I think this is getting way out of hand. For the record you qouted the one somewhat nice thing had to say about the game...10 pages came before that comment. That comment doesn't even come across as him thinking its a pretty good FALLOUT game....and thats really the point right?

Overall, it looks like it's a much better game than Oblivion. It's not a Fallout game, of course. It's not even a Fallout-inspired game as I quietly hoped. It's a game with things you've seen in the Fallout games. Like vaults and super mutants.

1 page.

Play the game, have fun. If not who cares right?

Notice I didnt rate Fallout 3. At least not yet, I just wrote about few things that struck me when I was watching videos. If somebody has fun with it then I'll sure be the first one to congratulate him for money well spend.

 

[Nikus]

Re-playing Daggerfall made me think that in some aspects it surpasses the later TES titles in the quality of its sand-box-ness. NPCs' attitude modifiers, Banks, crime/punishment rules, weapon movements that visibly improve with stats, (simple & "templated") branching quests etc etc. I appreciate the difficulty of making a quality sand box cRPG, but to me it looks like Beth Soft turned to spending too much time on visuals at the expense of creating a more sophisticated game mechanics/world model. Maybe I'm wrong and it's technically impossible to make a complex living and breathing game world model without main story line, but with choices and consequences. But Daggerfall was arguably a better effort at this than what followed.

 

[rune_74]

nessosin do you not notice that he does not think its a fallout game? How do you explain to those who have played FO1 and 2 and find it to be a great successor to it? I'm really curious as to how you ignore the fact he thinks its not Fallout....