I can only state that the discussion here is already *very* heated.
Is English your native language? What part about 'taking your argument to the proper thread' did you not understand?
So why do you get to define what a cRPG is? Chance are I've played more of them for far longer than you have, heck, I even wrote a couple, but I am not going to try to define them. As I said earlier just because you don't like something doesn't mean it isn't good (and vice-versa, too).
Ultima (no number, the original) is a cRPG. Wizardry is a cRPG. Planescape is a cRPG. Gothic is a cRPG. Oblivion is a cRPG. Fallout 3 is a cRPG. Even Diablo is. Live with it.
Back to FO3.
If VATs is a cheat mode than was the targeting system in FO 1/2 a cheat mode? It's effectively the same thing.
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php?topic=577.0 said:Strength 5, Melee 15. In Fallout 1 that would mean a painful death. In Fallout 3 that means 94% chance to hit in VATS mode.
So do you deny that a character with 15 Melee 5 Strength has 94% chance to hit in VATS?
Also it doesn't change the fact that I've seen many times the way VATS works.
Time stops, you pick opponent head as a target and then bam, bam, bam, bam, bam...bam, multiply headshots with no chances of your opponent to retaliate. And you're telling me it's not a cheat mode?
I did not defined what is a cRPG and what's not. I just asked those who liked Oblivion what RPG qualities it posesses. And still nobody answered me, but on the other hand you keep telling me I should accept your point of view, period. Is that so hard to define top qualities of "the best cRPG ever"?
And to answer to your VATS question. Chances are that you indeed played more and better cRPGs in your life. And there are also chances that you had just forgotten how targeting system in FO 1 and 2 worked. So as to remind you or clarify if you hadn't had the pleasure to play them I'll try to explain the difference to you.
Targeting in previous FO was somehow balanced. It didnt stop the time so that you could hit 5 headshots in a row, it costed you even more action points than normal action and your chances for succesfull hit was sometimes lower than in normal action. VATS on the other hand. Let me quote VD:
Do you see the difference now?
I just asked those who liked Oblivion what RPG qualities it posesses. And still nobody answered me, but on the other hand you keep telling me I should accept your point of view, period.
So do you deny that a character with 15 Melee 5 Strength has 94% chance to hit in VATS?
Also it doesn't change the fact that I've seen many times the way VATS works.
Time stops, you pick opponent head as a target and then bam, bam, bam, bam, bam...bam, multiply headshots with no chances of your opponent to retaliate. And you're telling me it's not a cheat mode?
First off I never said it was the best RPG ever. Whoever did obviously likes it a lot and more power to him/her.
As for what RPG qualities Oblivion possesses we first need to ask what is a cRPG? I try to always be careful to stick the c in front of RPG when talking about the computer games because they, all of them, every single last one, are fundamentally and incredibly limited without having a live person running the game like a normal table top RPG. I played Wizardry 1 and Ultima 1 and considered them to be cRPGs (and AWESOME, too) at the time. By modern standards they are very simple cRPGs but cRPGs none-the-less.
The one thing that (IMO) a cRPG must have in order to distinguish itself from other games is a character (or characters) that you use to play a role on a personal level and some sort of way (numbers, words, whatever) to distinguish your character's abilities from others. That is fundamental in the history of table RPGs, too. After that it gets murkier. Some sort of conflict? That is fundamental to the concept of game and so doesn't help. Story? It's good to have but not necessary, at least not a total game one (re: Darklands). Choice in character? Also good to have but not necessary (re: Planescape). Change (growth) in the character's abilities? Every cRPG I can think of does this but some table top ones don't so it's also not necessary. Equipment to fiddle with? I can't think of any that don't but I can imagine not needing it. Affecting the story? No cRPG handles this very well because of the inherent limits of the medium. But, heck, a lot of table top RPG sessions probably don't either.
It's not so easy to define. There are many games that contain most of the common elements of cRPGs but, well, just don't seem to be RPGs. Look at the Heroes of Might and Magic games. Some of them have everything in the above list (and more) but most people wouldn't classify them as RPGs.
If you think it has Oblivion has *no* RPG qualities then you must have a very narrow definition. What qualities do you think that a computer game must have before it can be considered to be an RPG?
Nope. Chances for a normal hit in FO 1/2 were identical as for aimed torso shots IIRC.
(Dhruin)...[to some players,] being able to step into the gameworld, completely ignore the main quest (or any quest, for that matter) and say "today, Aldon Axeblade wants to pick flowers by the seashore" is exactly what roleplaying is all about.
Like I said anything and I medan anything VD has to say about FO3 I would take with a grain of salt the guy is on a mission here. I wonder how he would feel if someone picks apart his little game when he releases it. If you want to you could do that to any game.
Vault Dweller said:Well, I'm trying to figure out. At the moment, based on my current impressions (!), it looks like it's a pretty good game overall. Again, keep in mind that I'm still at the early stages of the game.
The fact that it was supposed to be a Fallout game constantly gets in the way and requires a mental block to ignore. It's hard not to compare the game to Fallout and develop a negative impression because everything is inferior (character system, quests, characters, dialogues, combat, etc). That's on one hand.
On the other hand, comparing FO3 to, say, beloved by many Gothic results in a favorable impression. While Gothic is incredibly atmospheric and allows you to side with whoever you want, the character system is simple and often broken, dialogue options are practically non-existent, translated German leaves much to be desired, combat is flawed, and you won't find any depth in quests.
So, the real, unbiased question here is - how does Bethesda PA game compare to similar games not to venerable and completely different Fallout? Comparing it to Fallout is like comparing it to PST. Predictable and serves no purpose other than bitching about Bethesda unwillingness and inability to do "what they don't do well".
Look we really get it, you hated oblivion and it was not an rpg for you.....so what? What do you want from us?
so what he gets 95% how do you know it does the same damage? all the variables leading up to that....do you know them? (nope and thats the way VD likes it, he has always been that way.)
But dwelling deeper into the 'picking flowers by the seashore' philosophy shouldn't this kind of roleplaying also be believable? And if yes does Oblivion do a good job at that? If I want to be a healer can I heal people and will they pay me for my services? Will they thank me? Will they even recognise I just cast a healing spell on them? So can I say that Oblivion created believable world where I can pick my herbs? That's where my problem with TES4 lie, the world doesnt react to my action. And if it does, it does it on the most primitive level, like attacking me when I kill someone. If I am a silent killer, wondering through night and killing innocent citizens and I am not seen then no one will try to investigate the case.
Sure, but now we're talking about something else rather than "it's not an RPG". There are unlimited things they could do better - I don't know how feasible it is (or isn't) with the reality of limited development resources. I's sure like them to focus on some different things - but I'm not really their target market. Can you think of another game that does a better job at those things? I can't.
I'm a big fan of space sims. There simply isn't a perfect sim that gives me everything I want: continuous universe, newtonian physics, dynamic trading, fleet management, planet landings etc. That doesn't mean I say no space sims exist because they are all lacking in some way or another.
rune_74 said:I think this is getting way out of hand. For the record you qouted the one somewhat nice thing had to say about the game...10 pages came before that comment. That comment doesn't even come across as him thinking its a pretty good FALLOUT game....and thats really the point right?
1 page.VD said:Overall, it looks like it's a much better game than Oblivion. It's not a Fallout game, of course. It's not even a Fallout-inspired game as I quietly hoped. It's a game with things you've seen in the Fallout games. Like vaults and super mutants.
Play the game, have fun. If not who cares right?