GOP Corruption and Obstruction

Numbers don't bluff, champ.

Dubya: $0.5T added to the national debt per year in office
Barack: $1.5T added to the national debt per year in office

Excuses welcome. And let's face it--even though he was a republican, Dubya was about as fiscally responsible as my wife in a purse store. So, not only does Barack lose on raw numbers, but he's losing to about the worst republican example you could drag out. That's the goal horn you're hearing.
 
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Yeah...if only it made sense to just compare Obama's record from his first two years to the entirety of Bush's record, without noting what Obama inherited, the unique type of opposition Obama has faced from the lunatic fringe on the Right(as opposed to Bush's undeserved bipartisan support in his first few years). That is a sneaky way to lie but it is still lying kiddo.
 
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Seeing as how Barack's deficit mania isn't getting any better, perhaps we'll have this discussion again in a couple years when the numbers are even worse and your "Blame Dubya" mantra completely runs out of gas.
 
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Perhaps. But you keep dodging a lot of stuff here. For starters, let's say for a second that Bush had left our country with a few trillion dollars in surplus, then Obama gets elected and in a very short time drives us into a mess similar to what Bush actually did after Clinton. Now let's say Obama did his two terms and we then elected a Republican(Jeb Bush, Sarah Palin...whomever) to fix the mess.

Would you expect that 2 or even 4 years would be all that was needed to completely eradicate what Obama(in this hypothetical) did? What if Jeb Bush(or whomever) managed to get us back on track(which of course is going to require spending money and pretending otherwise is childish) but had not yet fixed everything. Would you then be crying about "Republican record deficit spending' and such?

Unless Barack does something truly radical like legalizing marijuana, I would be quite shocked if he was able to fix Bush's entire mess in his first term.

And the other thing is that 'spending' is not the issue here. I could not care less if Obama OR Bush spent a gazillion dollars as long as it was GOOD spending. Simply posting the unqualified numbers without noting all the circumstances surrounding each is like including 'self defense' and efforts to save lives by police officers in the numbers of 'violent incidents' cops are involved in to make a case that there is a culture of violence within that profession.
 
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Perhaps. But you keep dodging a lot of stuff here. For starters, let's say for a second that Bush had left our country with a few trillion dollars in surplus, then Obama gets elected and in a very short time drives us into a mess similar to what Bush actually did after Clinton. Now let's say Obama did his two terms and we then elected a Republican(Jeb Bush, Sarah Palin…whomever) to fix the mess.

Would you expect that 2 or even 4 years would be all that was needed to completely eradicate what Obama(in this hypothetical) did? What if Jeb Bush(or whomever) managed to get us back on track(which of course is going to require spending money and pretending otherwise is childish) but had not yet fixed everything. Would you then be crying about "Republican record deficit spending' and such?
Valid argument, but it's fair to expect movement in the right direction pretty quickly. The ship won't turn on a dime, but somebody'd better be cranking the shit out of the helm. Not only are we not averting disaster, but we're full steam ahead for some really sharp rocks. That's not unreasonable to complain about, and that's got exactly nothing to do with Dubya.
And the other thing is that 'spending' is not the issue here. I could not care less if Obama OR Bush spent a gazillion dollars as long as it was GOOD spending. Simply posting the unqualified numbers without noting all the circumstances surrounding each is like including 'self defense' and efforts to save lives by police officers in the numbers of 'violent incidents' cops are involved in to make a case that there is a culture of violence within that profession.
The problem with that argument is that I'm quite confident we'd have remarkably different definitions of "GOOD spending". If your defense hinges on my blind acceptance of your subjective judgment, it's a shaky defense.
 
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Valid argument, but it's fair to expect movement in the right direction pretty quickly.
Depends on the specific circumstances. Again, Bush had Democrats falling over themselves to go along with whatever he wanted to do. Democrats were the 'Alan Colmes' or 'Washington Generals' back then whereas Obama has had the exact converse of that situation where Republicans are even going so far as you oppose him when he does exactly what they want and ask for. A game of :

Republicans: "WE want *THIS*!"

Obama: "O.k., that sounds fair. You can have *THIS*."

Republicans: "No…we do not want *THIS* now and are offended you would suggest such a disastrous policy for our country!"

Obama: "Ok…what Do you want?"

Republicans: "You out of office you sock monkey Sambo m*th*rf*ck*r! And tell everyone to quit inferring there may be racist elements at work here you uppity n*gg*r!"

So surely you can see that this is quite a different challenge for a sitting President. Hard to get anything done when faced with that kind of nonsense.


The ship won't turn on a dime, but somebody'd better be cranking the shit out of the helm. Not only are we not averting disaster, but we're full steam ahead for some really sharp rocks. That's not unreasonable to complain about, and that's got exactly nothing to do with Dubya.
Whether we are headed for really sharp rocks or not remains to be seen. That Republicans are the ones trying to steer us towards really sharp rocks because their chances for getting back into power in November hinge on this seems lost on you. And to say that all of this has NOTHING to do with Dubtya…?! I almost fell out of my chair laughing! I shouldn't have to remind you of why we are in this mess in the first place right?


The problem with that argument is that I'm quite confident we'd have remarkably different definitions of "GOOD spending". If your defense hinges on my blind acceptance of your subjective judgment, it's a shaky defense.
I don't doubt we have different definitions but you are at a severe disadvantage here because the records are working against the idea that Republicans know anything about fiscal responsibility and good spending.

Reagan? Drove us into a record setting deficit and caused huge unemployment while turning AIDS into an epidemic and doing away with the 'Fairness doctrine' that has allowed Fox News and such to come about.

Bush Sr.: Drove us further into deficit and unemployment by maintaining the "Trickle down" disaster of Reagan and expanding the rift between the top 1% of America and the rest of America.

Clinton: Got lucky with the internet coming about when it did and was more of a Conservative Democrat to be sure but he DID manage to dig us OUT of Bush's deficit with his "Liberal 'tax-and-spend' policies"(eye roll) and left office with a few trillion dollars in surplus.

Shrub/Dubya: Set fire to the surplus and drove us right back into a deficit that his dad would have been proud of! As a direct result the country ends up in a recession with record breaking unemployment, all while corporate America reports record setting profits(none of which have 'trickled down' to the rest of us BTW).


You can dodge all of that all you want but let's face it, when Republicans get into office, the country suffers…every single time! And this is not juust flukey bad luck. it is directly because of Conservative policies and the wealthiest 1% manipulatuing the poor and uneducated majority into fucking themselves while blaming the very people looking out for them! I generally hate it when people try to drag George Orwell into these things to attack one side or the other but I dare say that the comparison here is apt. What is Fox News if not a mouthpiece for 'Big Brother' offering 'Newspeak' in minute by minute bulletins?
 
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I'm glad you've enjoyed your Koolaid. Rather than deal with the whole dogpile, let's just go with the first bit of obviously flawed logic and call it a night.

I'm supposed to give Barack a pass because Dubya handed him a turd. OK. But you'll crucify Saint Ron (BTW, you really ought to check your before/after numbers on unemployment before you embarass yourself further--1980: 7.1% 1988: 5.5%) and completely ignore the steaming, runny turd that Carter left in his wake? If you've got no problem being that inconsistent to get the answer you want, the discussion is relatively pointless.
 
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Valid argument, but it's fair to expect movement in the right direction pretty quickly. The ship won't turn on a dime, but somebody'd better be cranking the shit out of the helm. Not only are we not averting disaster, but we're full steam ahead for some really sharp rocks. That's not unreasonable to complain about, and that's got exactly nothing to do with Dubya.

Depends on your definition of pretty quickly. There is at least a 1-2 year lag. First it takes time to actually get things legislated, second it takes time for the legislation to have any effect. I'd guess that Obama's (from this side of the Atlantic rather unimpressive-looking) policies accounts for around 30-50% of the current situation. I give you that the indicators that usually are ahead of the curve dont look impressive yet though:p

By comparison our right-wing govt of 1991-94 also inherited a free fall economy (with a real estate and financial crisis). It took them a year or so to just assess the damage (and drop some of the more boneheaded pre-conceptions that come from being in opposition for too long), and they only started making positive reforms after that. The stock market and GDP growth only took off after three years, and those are early indicators. It was too late for reelection:p The social democrats then kept many of the sound changes and liked to take credit for the good growth of 94-95:p

I'm supposed to give Barack a pass because Dubya handed him a turd. OK. But you'll crucify Saint Ron (BTW, you really ought to check your before/after numbers on unemployment before you embarass yourself further—1980: 7.1% 1988: 5.5%) and completely ignore the steaming, runny turd that Carter left in his wake? If you've got no problem being that inconsistent to get the answer you want, the discussion is relatively pointless.

It is of course completely fair to take Carter into account in 1980-83, or Bush Sr in 1994-96.:)
 
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Apparently Florida Republicans like their tea while also stealing from the government. Not only is government bad, but it should be raped whenever possible!

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0810/41439.html

The $1.7 billion that Columbia/HCA hospital chain paid in fines over Medicare and Medicaid fraud under [Rick] Scott’s tenure as CEO offers Democrats significant fodder for the fall and is partly why the Republican Governors Association issued a tepid statement Tuesday night observing only that the party “now looks forward.”
 
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Let's take a look at liberal "cooperation", shall we? From your source:
Reid allowed Republicans the opportunity to offer only one amendment to address GOP objections on the military's policy on gays.

Collins said she planned to vote against advancing the bill unless Democrats agreed to extend debate so that her colleagues could weigh in on other issues.
Why worry about those little details when there's a nice bit of party line to be spooned out, eh?

Edit- or perhaps there was a little more going on under the hood than you think? (quietly omitted from your source)
Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid has pledged to include another [amendment to this bill] that provides children of illegal immigrants who weren’t born in the U.S. a path to citizenship if they serve in the military or go to college.
But why worry about those little details when there's a nice bit of party line to be spooned out, eh?
 
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What other issues did they want to weigh in? That bigotry is somehow justified because of what is written in the bible or some other nonsense?

Amendments are open to debate I believe before approval, so killing the whole bill because of a potential amendment smells like BS.

Also, can you give us a credible reference on that amendment? Sounds like typical wingnut paranoia talk, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt if you have some facts to back that up.
 
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I know you don't care for FoxNews, but it's not like this sort of shenanigans is going to make Michael Moore's site. This was the easiest source to find.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/09/21/procedural-vote-stalls-defense-repeal-dont-ask-dont-tell/
Democrats had also intended to offer the DREAM Act, a proposal giving young illegal immigrants who attend college or join the military a path to citizenship, as an amendment — a move that injected a heightened level of controversy into the debate over the past week. Plus the bill included a measure to repeal a longstanding ban on abortions at U.S. military hospitals overseas.
Since the bill didn't pass, I don't know whether the actual contents would be included in the congressional record. Might be worth a peek if you refuse to accept Fox and actually want to check up on your side's games.

edit- I've got a "better" one for you. It doesn't get much more pinko than FDL.
http://news.firedoglake.com/2010/09/20/several-senate-democrats-undecided-on-the-dream-act/
As I mentioned earlier, the defense authorization bill faces peril on its motion to proceed. That would render moot the vote on the DREAM Act, which would allow undocumented students brought to America by their parents a path to citizenship if they complete college or military service. Harry Reid has promised a vote on the DREAM Act as an amendment to the defense bill,
 
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Thanks for a credible reference (we're ignoring the Faux News noise). ;)

Well, that's confirmation that Harry Reid is an idiot. Very bad strategy on his part. Gays have been thrown under the bus again. :(

From what I have heard, the bill was killed because of bigotry on both sides of the aisle, but far more calls for the continued bashing of the gays have are coming from the right.
 
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So Republicans are either obstructionists or hate mongering bigots? Or both?
So, you're admitting that perhaps you were a bit hasty with these assumptions? That, perhaps, your side was playing some underhanded politics? That, perhaps, you should be a little more careful before letting the party line bile flow?
 
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You obviously have absolutely no understanding of how laws get passed in our government because that statement is just patently false. You might consider a refresher course in basic civics, since I'll assume your error was from ignorance rather than an attempt to lie your way out of a corner.

Oh well, I'll just keep soldiering on, ever hopeful that someday, just once, you'll have the integrity to admit when you've stepped on your tallywacker. I really won't gloat...much...
 
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Each amendment only has to make it thru committee. Neither the entire House nor the entire Senate casts an up-or-down on individual amendments (although they do get to "close the door" on adding amendments via procedural votes). Bills get voted on as all-or-nothing. You either get one big-ass law or you get squat. Refresher course, champ.

Not sure whether you'd like to call that a denial or not, but you remain incorrect about the fundamental process of lawmaking.

Don't worry, that footprint will wash off eventually.
 
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Wrong again, DTE. So what mail order university did buy your degree from? Once again when proven wrong you resort to personal attacks, revealing you as the oinker you are…

From this OFFICIAL (i.e. not right-wing lies and propaganda) website:

http://www.senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/legprocessflowchart.pdf

Read the bold parts if you can be man enough to crawl out of your cesspool of denial…

The Amending Process
Floor consideration of a measure usually begins with opening statements by the floor managers,and often by other Senators. The managers usually are the chair and ranking minority member ofthe reporting committee or pertinent subcommittee. The first amendments usually to be considered are those recommended by the reporting committee. If the committee has proposed many amendments, the manager often obtains unanimous consent that these amendments be adopted, but that all provisions of the measure as amended remain open to further amendment. After committee amendments are disposed of, amendments may be offered to any part of the measure in any order. If the committee recommends a substitute for the full text of the measure, the substitute normally remains open to amendment throughout its consideration.

The Senate may dispose of each amendment either by voting on it directly or by voting to table it.

The motion to table cannot be debated; and, if the Senate agrees to it, the effect is the same as a vote to defeat the amendment. If the Senate defeats the motion, however, debate on the amendment may resume
.
 
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