Couchpotato, you could easily say the same thing about films or books as businesses too. But you know what, there is no way in HELL you could convince me to go to the next Transformers film! I would much rather watch something with some substance.
Every now and then, something comes out that is both has a large budget and is also thoughtful (something along the lines of Inception perhaps). That's the general area I see Mass Effect 3 in.
I generally think that people at RPGWatch are intelligent and thoughtful, specifically about games. This is one area I find the popular values around here to be way off! Are people really saying they would rather have a title choose the easy, mainstream ways of presenting an ending rather than something interesting that demands a little abstract thinking?
This seems very inconsistent with game feedback I have received here before. What did people around here even like about the original Witcher? It was the thoughtful ending that made the game for me.
@Mr. Smiley, I also dislike when they make changes like that. I believe I saw the same ending to that flick that you did…but also remember a cheesy alternate ending on the DVD where he travels back into his mother's womb and strangles himself. Never saw the happy ending…
+1. You literally posted almost word for word what I was thinking.
People already tend to complain about RPGs as having cookie cutter stories with little originality. This ME3 fiasco may backfire and reinforce the idea that devs should play it safe and not deviate from the template with game stories, for fear of backlash if it doesn't go over well.
Also, taking a "customer is always right" approach is tough with something like this, where there may be a wide spectrum of ideas about what is right. I think Bioware is handling this situation well, throwing a (free) bone to those unhappy while standing by the decisions they made.
IMO the problem is not preserving the artistic integrity … because there is none in this case. Based on everything published, tweeted, reviewed, released, and discussions its pretty clear the ending was a rushed, sloppy, resource-reused hack-job pushed out by Casey Hudson.
Sure the ending was probably already fleshed out to various degrees … but between recovering from the leaked game a year before and pressure from shareholders and suits they rushed out an ending to a trilogy that STRESSED and ADVERTISED how your choice matters.
In the end this wasn't about "art" it was about rushing out an ending to make money.
I am all for art in games and giving companies the freedom to create their games. But games are often a two-way street between company and player - especially when you allow the player to interact and have a lot of supposed C&C.
You need to balance meeting some artistic needs with also selling a product … and in an interactive medium make sure you understand the game also needs to work with the players and that the ending does as well.
I am against changing the endings 100%. What is done is done. However hiding behind the lame excuse of "artistic integrity", in this particular case, isn't valid IMO because I highly doubt how much of that was really involved with the endings that got released.
EDIT: Nothing wrong with taking risks - but do it intelligently. Don't throw together some sloppy ending filled with a ton of plot holes, introduce last minute god-children, and slap all the players in the face by discarding their choices and involvement with the game.
Good writers could have provided an innovative and risky ending but one that also fit a lot better.
... Are people really saying they would rather have a title choose the easy, mainstream ways of presenting an ending rather than something interesting that demands a little abstract thinking?...
There are numerous different modified endings that could be conceived, written and implemented by quality game developers. Endings with interesting and abstract content, and more (including for example content directly tied to player choice and consequence). There's a huge world in between "the easy, mainstream ways of presenting an ending" and current three-color ME3 ending. Choices abound for the creative, i.e., true artists.
It has to have a beginning,middle,and end. That is what a trilogy is. I don't want to speculate what happens. I want to play and finish. Not ponder what the hell just happened and try to connect and fill in the missing plot line.
Are people really saying they would rather have a title choose the easy, mainstream ways of presenting an ending rather than something interesting that demands a little abstract thinking?
Ross, for Goddess sake, with the exception of, maybe, 2 or 3 early posts NOBODY else is saying that. Who are those "people" you are so preoccupied with?
@Mr. Smiley - Ha ha, whoops, I hope I didn't ruffle your feathers with my "cheesy" comment at all! Now that I think of it, I remember reading something about how the womb ending was the original but it was changed. I mostly found it cheesy because I can't imagine an infant, especially one that is unborn, being able to do something like that — not from a intelligence standpoint (as the cognitive abilities of Kutcher's character apparently travel with him), but from a physical standpoint. Even though this has nothing to do with Mass Effect 3, I am going to put a spoiler tag on it so it doesn't ruin it for people that haven't seen the Butterfly Effect but still intend to:
In the end of the version I saw, he travels back to a formative moment in the development of his future relationship as a child and tells his future love interest that he hates her and he wants her to stay away from him.
Was this the happy ending you referred to? I didn't see it as a happy ending whatsoever because he was deprived of that which he loved most — and lived his life knowing it was out there.
@wolfgrimdark - well thought post. However, as I said before, I thought the game had a spiritual theme that permeated throughout all three games. I thought from the very first game that the reapers had to be a tool of some sort of higher being…so I can't say that I felt the "deus ex machina" came out of nowhere.
I have heard a lot of people talk about plot holes in the Mass Effect series. There are some, for sure…such as
what happened to Harbinger? Felt like a lot of build up, and then he was just never mentioned again.
In most cases though, the game just omits information. Not all of that omitted information is extremely pertinent to the story or can't easily be filled in. And what incredibly valuable information were we left without?
@coachpotato - to each his own. I interpreted what happened a certain way…I am happy to discuss it, but I don't consider it speculation.
@RPGfool and zahratustra - the game allows you to make a couple choices that have potentially serious ramifications, it just didn't drastically change the ending cinematics. Is that a flaw? Well perhaps, but I can't say I think it's that big of a deal. I still think I made an impact on the universe. So is that your complaint? That you wanted more cinematics?
You can impact the survival of earth, whether you gain control of the reapers, whether you destroy all synthetics, whether to morph the organics and synthetics into one, and gain a glimpse of whether or not Shepard survives, based on your decisions.
What exactly did you expect? It's a lot better than having one ending, which the other 99% of games provide you.
The ending was not perfect by any means, but it was a lot better than most that I have been a part of, including some games that are considered to be true classics. It would have been nice to see a little write-up about how the different civilizations and characters fared after the story ended, ala Fallout or DA: O, but I don't think that alone could possibly "make or break" the ending.
I'd far prefer them to rework the final two mission sets which were a horrendously repetitive, turgid slog with few to no reedeeming features at all. The actual endings were pretty appropriate for what was- in essence- a SciFi B-movie in game form, and far less a negative than cut-and-paste-encounter #72 in a series of 128.
Was this the happy ending you referred to? I didn't see it as a happy ending whatsoever because he was deprived of that which he loved most — and lived his life knowing it was out there.
I'll have to watch it again to be sure. If memory serves me right (it doesn't always) following what you describe, there is a final scene where they happen to meet as young adults, without their traumatic shared history, as for the first time, and there is a connection between them as they smile at each other in the final shot or someting like that.
Yeah, but I think that it was meant to be bittersweet, as he recognized her because of his history with her, but it doesn't really seem like she recognized him or especially cared about seeing him. If I remember correctly, they just continue walking on after meeting eyes -- he looks troubled by it, but she just walks on.
There is one thing that I find amusing and also worrying. The increasing number of people who have an opinion about something they haven't themselves seen, tried, experienced. The majority of the posts regarding the ME3 ending(s) are from people that are just recycling someone else s perception of the ending(s).
I've always considered the "loud" people in fora to be an extremely non-representative sample. I mean in a game like ME3 that sells millions one has to wonder about the couple of thousands (tens of thousands even?) ability to represent the "gamers opinion".
One thing I'll agree about games is that ultimately gamers (consumers) vote with their wallets. If any company sells millions of a game then you have your answer about gamers opinion.
When I'll find the time to play ME3 I'm curious to see what my perception of the game will be. Until then, I stay amused at the lovely internet drama regarding all this.
PS. I find the idea of amending an ending very worrying. This year's Oscars had a very amusing video about "focus groups".
Yeah, but I think that's meant to be bittersweet, as he recognized her because of his history with her, but it doesn't really seem like she recognized him or especially cared about seeing him…if I remember correctly, they just continue walking on after meeting eyes, he looks troubled by it, but she just walks on.
That might be right. I felt cheated because the original ending wasn't even on the disc. The lack of realism regarding the in utero suicide never bothered me, while I appreciated the weight and finality of that conclusion.
I've always considered the "loud" people in fora to be an extremely non-representative sample. I mean in a game like ME3 that sells millions one has to wonder about the couple of thousands (tens of thousands even?) ability to represent the "gamers opinion".
Except nobody is prescient and games are being bought mainly on the strengths of their predecessors. A lot of copies of DA2 were sold because people liked DA:O and a lot of copies of ME3 were sold because they liked ME1 and/or ME2. It will be interesting to see how sale figures of Bioware's future release will fare. Players might be much less likely to believe the hype next time. Fool me once and all that…
Are people really saying they would rather have a title choose the easy, mainstream ways of presenting an ending rather than something interesting that demands a little abstract thinking?
No, we're saying that we don't want an ending that is inconsistent with the previous 100 hours of gameplay, and one that doesn't have enormous plot holes.
Except nobody is prescient and games are being bought mainly on the strengths of their predecessors. A lot of copies of DA2 were sold because people liked DA:O and a lot of copies of ME3 were sold because they liked ME1 and/or ME2. It will be interesting to see how sale figures fo Bioware's future release will fare. Players will be much less likely to believe the hype next time. Fool me once and all that…
That's the problem I have - the negative hype surrounding the ending just seems like some sort of movement, certainly not representative of my experience. I played all three games in a row, and this was my order and rating of the games:
1. Mass Effect 1 A-
2. Mass Effect 3 A-
3. Mass Effect 2 B
The third improved on a lot of the problems I had with the second game. It added in parts that I preferred about the first game while keeping some elements from the second. It also felt a lot more consistent in style and tone than the second game did. The first was the best in plenty of respects, but it also had some pretty bad elements that I'm glad they got rid of (particularly the Mako). Within the next week or so, I will post something more detailed about the three games in the "last game you finished..." thread.
LOL Grifman and that's your mistake right there. You should, like Demiath, just be grateful that Bioware have decided to share their "artistic vision" with you!
That's the problem I have - the negative hype surrounding the ending just seems like some sort of movement, certainly not representative of my experience.
No, we're saying that we don't want an ending that is inconsistent with the previous 100 hours of gameplay, and one that doesn't have enormous plot holes.
That really puts it best. You can be artistic and have an ending that makes people think. But when your ending isn't logically consistent (in many ways), then its obvious that isn't what you were going for (or if it was, then it was just terrible execution).
LOL Grifman and that's your mistake right there. You should, like Demiath, just be grateful that Bioware have decided to share their "artistic vision" with you!
Well, obviously you are entitled to your opinion. And you are entitled to how you'll spend your money in the future, based on your experience and satisfaction of the game(s). And of course you are entitled to communicate this experience and opinion.
As far as I'm concerned that's the extend of the entitlement of any gamer (or movie viewer, book reader, theater goer, etc) though. The whole notion of Fix IT so I Like It , is a bit silly at best.
