Mass Effect - Beyond Gender Choice @ GameCritics

[Prime Junta]

It's easy from a male perspective to downplay the importance of youth in the female gender - because we're attractive - or so it would seem, based on other factors - like our capacity for generating revenue and maintaining positions of perceived power.

True, dat.

Somehow, I don't think that you'll find too many women with those kinds of wrinkles, droops, and hair who still qualify as sex symbols.

We got it good, brothers.

 

[DArtagnan]

I'm atypical, because I'm neither interested in perceived power, nor the attentions that perceived power would bring.

I actually believe in the mythical concept of love based on genuine qualities

Problem is, I haven't really found any proof as far as my own life is concerned

 

[Prime Junta]

Keep looking. I was 27 when I met my wife, so it took me, oh, about a dozen years and two dozen tries.

 

[DArtagnan]

Keep looking. I was 27 when I met my wife, so it took me, oh, about a dozen years and two dozen tries.

I'm glad to hear that

I'll definitely keep looking, as I find life pretty hollow overall without this thing in it, though there are many entertaining distractions.

 

[Maylander]

That's not the point, though, is it? In fact, what you're saying is a really, really, REALLY old canard — I get it all the time when I talk with socially conservative Arabs, for example — "Sure, it may *look* like us men are running the show, but in reality, the women are the ones pulling the strings."

If the women were the Ayatollahs that actually set the rules, this comparison would be correct. That is the level of power the Asari have. And in that case, the entire situation would be opposite of what it is today, wouldn't it?

In any case, like aries said, the Asari can reproduce regardless of sex, and don't really have a "sex"; they simply appear female to human eyes. To a Krogan, they probably don't appear female at all.

Edit: I'd just like to add that Madonna still getting laid pretty much ruins the entire discussion above. If anyone finds her attractive, it should be possible for someone of the opposite sex to find Sean Connery & co attractive as well.

 

[DArtagnan]

Why insist any gender is running the show?

Madonna is quite a bit younger than the two men in question, and she is in rare shape. Not my kind of woman, but she's definitely attractive.

Both sexes have the potential to "run the show" - based on what their "powerbase" is supposed to be. If we're talking "pussypower", then I find it an oversimplification - and one that can differ SEVERELY from person to person.

Beyond that, genders depend on each other for several reasons, not least of which would be the need to be loved.

I find it really strange that so many men insist that women have the power, because they certainly don't have implicit one-way power over anyone. It's all circular, and even if men choose to be weak and put power into the hands of a woman based on physical needs alone, women need men to be dependant on them because they want something in return - and an emotional connection can't be "bought" like that.

I think it's a lot more valid that men are "in control" based on tangible and measurable positions of power. But that's changing and has been for a long time. In the end, all these kinds of perceivable power is an illusion if the aim is to be truly happy.

You want to be happy? Accept that you're weak in terms of needing love - and strong in terms of accepting that about yourself and being able to give love in return. What does weakness matter, if it goes both ways? It doesn't. So make sure that it does go both ways.

But that's just my opinion, of course.

 

[Prime Junta]

If the women were the Ayatollahs that actually set the rules, this comparison would be correct. That is the level of power the Asari have. And in that case, the entire situation would be opposite of what it is today, wouldn't it?

Ah, but they say that that's exactly how it is -- that in reality, the Ayatollah's wife is the one who's pulling the strings.

In any case, like aries said, the Asari can reproduce regardless of sex, and don't really have a "sex"; they simply appear female to human eyes. To a Krogan, they probably don't appear female at all.

Yes, my point exactly -- they're an absurd sexist teenage fantasy.

Edit: I'd just like to add that Madonna still getting laid pretty much ruins the entire discussion above. If anyone finds her attractive, it should be possible for someone of the opposite sex to find Sean Connery & co attractive as well.

And, of course, Madonna shows all the droops and wrinkles of a typical 50-plus -- like Sean Connery, Harrison Ford, and Jack Nicholson. Right?

No, wait! Actually she works like a maniac to stay looking as young as she possibly can.

 

[aries100]

The problem is this:

In the western capitalistic societies, youth is seen as something desirable. Not so in more traditional societies in which the older women are revered and honored, say today's Viet Nam or China still in some places where people live more traditional (and rural) lives. In these societies, like in the Asari society, older women are expected to be leaders, and to accept that time passes, and that they don't look as great as they back when they were younger. They can still be very sexual appealing, though...even without the benefit of plastic surgery I know some older women who are still very attractive sexually...

In traditional societies, the women are 'the secretaries of the family' where men are the 'state secretaries' meaning that women deals with matters of the family whereas men deals with the government and such. In the Asari society women (or what we percieve as female, hence the women) do both since they are this mono-gendered species that reproduce (make baby asaris) no matter who they decide to share their bed with - as long as they are are from an intelligent race like say - humans -

 

[DArtagnan]

The problem is this:

In the western capitalistic societies, youth is seen as something desirable. Not so in more traditional societies in which the older women are revered and honored, say today's Viet Nam or China still in some places where people live more traditional (and rural) lives. In these societies, like in the Asari society, older women are expected to be leaders, and to accept that time passes, and that they don't look as great as they back when they were younger. They can still be very sexual appealing, though…even without the benefit of plastic surgery I know some older women who are still very attractive sexually…

If women want to age naturally, I think that's great. I personally don't see the wonders of extending youth beyond what you can accomplish by simply living a healthy life.

But as long as males desire younger women, and as long as we worship qualities that don't deal with inner values - this problem will persist.

Instead of focusing on women being weak for adhering to the standards of society, I vote that we should start altering those standards by setting examples

In traditional societies, the women are 'the secretaries of the family' where men are the 'state secretaries' meaning that women deals with matters of the family whereas men deals with the government and such. In the Asari society women (or what we percieve as female, hence the women) do both since they are this mono-gendered species that reproduce (make baby asaris) no matter who they decide to share their bed with - as long as they are are from an intelligent race like say - humans -

I wasn't aware that such standards existed, and I find that things differ from culture to culture. The only constants would be things related to the very real and tangible physical differences between genders.

 

[Maylander]

Ah, but they say that that's exactly how it is — that in reality, the Ayatollah's wife is the one who's pulling the strings.

You're still not getting this. In ME, there is no secret behind "who's pulling strings". The Asari are pulling all the strings and making all the rules, both officially and unofficially. In the case of the Ayatollah, they'd be both the wife and the Ayatollah (being mono-gendered, that's actually possible in this case).

They're the uber race. The masters of the galaxy. The big dawg. Top of the food chain. Call it whatever you want, there is noone above or on par with the Asari in the ME universe.

That is very unlike women of today. Yes, some claim that "women have the power", but most official positions are held by men. The Asari, on the other hand, officially do have those positions (similar to men today).

Their position in ME is far more similar to mens position than womens. They're hardly following the outdated "at home raising the kids" stereotype now are they? Nor are they oppressed or abused in any way (how to abuse someone who can toss most people across the room with a thought?).

Personally I find it refreshing to see a galaxy run by women (and not just secretly run by them, but officially run by them). On the other hand, the Asari are not female, so the whole point of the article and this discussion is moot.

And, of course, Madonna shows all the droops and wrinkles of a typical 50-plus — like Sean Connery, Harrison Ford, and Jack Nicholson. Right?

No, wait! Actually she works like a maniac to stay looking as young as she possibly can.

Sean Connery is 79 years old. If you think it's natural for someone nearing 80 to look like he does, you're going to be rather disappointed when you grow old. There's definetly a redicilous amount of effort behind it, and certainly not something he's simply "let happen" over the years.

Also, have you ever seen Tom Jones? The man has so much botox in his face he'd probably melt if it got too hot. I'm sure he does it for the fun of it, and not to attract women.

Do not confuse gold diggers with who finds what attractive.

 

[Prime Junta]

Personally I find it refreshing to see a galaxy run by women (and not just secretly run by them, but officially run by them). On the other hand, the Asari are not female, so the whole point of the article and this discussion is moot.

But, again, that wasn't the point of the article. The point of the article was that the Asari in general and certain Asari in particular are hand-crafted (pun intentional) to fit the teenage "virgin slut" sexual fantasy, using the even hoarier (pun also intentional) maiden-mother-crone sexual stereotype.

(Also, if you don't think the topic is worth discussing, by all means feel free not to discuss it.)

Sean Connery is 79 years old.

And still a sex symbol. Any female 79-year-old sex symbols you can think of?

If you think it's natural for someone nearing 80 to look like he does, you're going to be rather disappointed when you grow old. There's definetly a redicilous amount of effort behind it, and certainly not something he's simply "let happen" over the years.

But he is wrinkled and gray-haired.

Jack Nicholson is another sex symbol, and he certainly hasn't done anything in particular to maintain his looks.

Also, have you ever seen Tom Jones? The man has so much botox in his face he'd probably melt if it got too hot. I'm sure he does it for the fun of it, and not to attract women.

Do not confuse gold diggers with who finds what attractive.

But even Tom Jones doesn't look 20 or 30, or try to. Hell, Silvio Berlusconi doesn't try to look 20 or 30, even with all the surgery he's done. (I'll give you Johnny Hallyday, but he's French.)

Point being: there are men past 50, who look like they're past 50, and are still considered sex symbols. There are women past 50 who are still considered sex symbols, but they manage it by doing their damnedest to look 30, and succeeding reasonably well, at least under the right lighting.

If you disagree, you can quite easily prove me wrong: just find me one woman sex symbol who's wrinkled, gray-haired, and has saggier tits than Jack Nicholson. Go!

 

[Maylander]

But, again, that wasn't the point of the article. The point of the article was that the Asari in general and certain Asari in particular are hand-crafted (pun intentional) to fit the teenage "virgin slut" sexual fantasy, using the even hoarier (pun also intentional) maiden-mother-crone sexual stereotype.

(Also, if you don't think the topic is worth discussing, by all means feel free not to discuss it.)

Yes, the crone/matriarch sexual fantasy is clearly a stereotype. I see old hags being turned into sex symbols all over the place.

The article claims the "matriarch" position in an Asari lifeline is stereotype, not the sexual fantasy. However, the writer has clearly failed to see what being a matriarch means - in this case it is not only someone who is revered when they grow older, it is also the ultimate political and social power in the galaxy. Hardly stereotype.

If you disagree, you can quite easily prove me wrong: just find me one woman sex symbol who's wrinkled, gray-haired, and has saggier tits than Jack Nicholson. Go!

Just google Madonna without make-up. Here's an example of what will show up:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Yi3tA5yIlkc/SI0ehHHHHzI/AAAAAAAACoI/84Xi00UNp48/s400/madonna-y.jpg

No, it's not edited, it's simply one of those days. And she's without make-up.

My point is simple: Celebrities getting into relationships with people who are younger/more beautiful doesn't mean anything beyond the fact that they are celebtrities. It proves nothing on who finds what attractive.

 

[Prime Junta]

Yes, the crone/matriarch sexual fantasy is clearly a stereotype. I see old hags being turned into sex symbols all over the place.

It *is* a stereotype, ever since the Eumenides.

The article claims the "matriarch" position in an Asari lifeline is stereotype, not the sexual fantasy. However, the writer has clearly failed to see what being a matriarch means - in this case it is not only someone who is revered when they grow older, it is also the ultimate political and social power in the galaxy. Hardly stereotype.

The article claims that both the sexual fantasy and the maiden-mother-crone lifecycle are stereotypes. And yes, they are. The Eumenides weren't exactly powerless either -- hell, they had enough power to jerk even the gods on a string of their own weaving.

Just google Madonna with make-up. Here's an example of what will show up:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Yi3tA5yIlkc/SI0ehHHHHzI/AAAAAAAACoI/84Xi00UNp48/s400/madonna-y.jpg

No, it's not edited, it's simply one of those days. And she's without make-up.

But that's not the image she projects. The photos of Harrison Ford, Jack Nicholson, and Sean Connery are reasonably representative of the images they project as sex symbols. It doesn't matter what Madonna looks like before she puts her face on; her sex symbol persona is something different -- and once she's no longer able to look good on-stage, in make-up, and in leotards, she will no longer be a sex symbol. And I don't think you'd want to see Jack Nicholson in leotards.

 

[JDR13]

I hate to interrupt such an insightful and intellectual debate, but I just want to know who the woman in the picture with Jack Nicholson is.

 

[Prime Junta]

Let me try rephrasing this, Maylander:

Are you seriously claiming that there's NOT a different qualifying standard for sex symbol status between men and women?

I.e., that (a) both men and women need to look young to qualify as sex symbols, or (b) that neither men nor women have to look young to qualify as sex symbols?

'Cuz I'm saying that it's pretty damn obvious that there is a different standard. Old women — women who LOOK old — are not sex symbols, where as old men — men who LOOK old — can be. Old, spry, and well-groomed, perhaps (like Sean Connery), but also old, flabby, and ungroomed (like Jack Nicholson).

 

[Prime Junta]

I hate to interrupt such an insightful and intellectual debate, but I just want to know who the woman in the picture with Jack Nicholson is.

Victoria Beckham.

 

[DArtagnan]

'Cuz I'm saying that it's pretty damn obvious that there is a different standard. Old women — women who LOOK old — are not sex symbols, where as old men — men who LOOK old — can be. Old, spry, and well-groomed, perhaps (like Sean Connery), but also old, flabby, and ungroomed (like Jack Nicholson).

I think you're using the wrong words.

Sean and Jack are attractive males, not sex symbols.

That's actually the gist of the difference you're talking about.

So I agree with you, I just wanted to point out what I think is a key point to appreciate.

Once women stop being sexually desirable, they're no longer attractive.

That's not really strange, though, because traditionally men have the power (as in the perception of them having the power) - and power is universally attractive. Traditionally, women are powerless, and as such sex is all they're good for.

 

[JDR13]

I'm currently hatching a plot to assassinate David Beckham. Would anyone like to join?

 

[Maylander]

I do believe DArthagnan more or less nailed it there. I can see the difference between someone with power and someone without, but a random guy looking like Jack Nicholson (without his money/power) would probably not be too popular. I hardly think money/power makes you sexy or turns you into a sex symbol, but I suppose it's possible that it makes you more attractive.

I'm currently hatching a plot to assassinate David Beckham. Would anyone like to join?

Victoria Beckham is a bit too skinny for my taste. If I hear of David Beckham being assassinated anytime soon, and Victoria showing up on with some random guy wherever she goes, I'll do you the favor of not telling the police.

 

[xSamhainx]

No, better let sleeping dogs lie.

I cant say that I was as, um… extreme as you appear to be in your stance, but I had gotten to the point that I was very generally quite tired of dating and people at large. I ended up finally finding her in an online personal ad, specifically Craigslist. I'm sure there's many crude jokes that can be made about that, but hey - in this day and age, you have the internet at your disposal. Us two anti-bar, tragically unhip pc geeks would have never ever met otherwise, now it's going on two years and heading towards happily-ever-after. Stay in the "looking for a friend" or whatever categories tho!

DArt - Late to the party but there's something to be said for taking things w/ a grain of salt, i wish that I could be more like that. The inverse is taking everything wayyy too seriously, and coming off as an emotional spazz. Nobody likes that, and it's embarrassing to boot and gives you high blood pressure.

Never played this "Mass effect", sounds like a good game lol ='.'=