Racism and President Obama

[JemyM]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here, then. From where I'm at, I don't see anything inherently elitist about discussing the world as it is as opposed to how we'd like it to be -- especially since I believe we're much more likely to find agreement about reality than about objectives.

Your experience is way above average which means that the "reality" that you take for granted is more than an average individual is able to comprehend. Furthermore, you have broken down plenty of natural instincts that you were born with. People with less experience than you still live with instincts that give them mistrust or fear. Before you can debate race you must first verify that whoever you talk to have the same stage of raised consciousness as you have.

I don't believe it's possible, or indeed desirable, to train away our propensity to identify with groups based on characteristics transmitted to us by our parents and society. I think it would be far more productive to try to learn to relate constructively to people who identify with different groups. That, naturally, applies to minority groups just as much as dominant ones.

You already did. Your experiences have challenged your instincts and were reprogrammed. You have already broken more barriers than most people will do in their lifetime.

I think that this is putting the cart before the horse. Using the description "black" is only bad if you believe or feel that "black" carries negative or exclusionary connotations.

It does if it's used in a competitive situation, such as promoting a president.

We were all ridiculously diverse in values, backgrounds, cultural expectations, and appearances, all thrown together in a big ol' multicolored mess, and it all somehow worked out just fine. For most of us, anyway.
I mean sure, there were the usual teenage cliques and all the general cattiness associated with it, but I honestly can't recall anything that was racially or ethnically or religiously motivated. I personally certainly never liked or disliked or feared any of my schoolmates for these reasons. Yet we were all very conscious about our respective cultures and communities. It's there, it's real, and it wasn't a big deal.

Teenagers are identity seekers but they do not understand cultures like an adult. They often go to radical extremes and try to identify themselves with whatever is available to them. Thing is, you still recognized eachother as individuals and you weren't even old enough to really recognize traditional cultural prejudice and misconceptions. I doubt any of you were as conscious about your respective cultures/communities compared to an adult who lived his/her entire lives within a fixed group. You were not representatives of different cultures, you were a culture. A rich culture, but still an unique culture composed by the people who were there.

But culture isn't the same thing as race. Culture is dynamic, not genetic.

But he *is* black, and that *does* make a difference to the way he sees himself, and the way American voters -- black, white, brown, yellow, red, Jewish, Arab, whatever -- see him. It's no use pretending that he isn't, or it doesn't. You say you've befriended people from different ethnic or religious backgrounds: that's a million times more effective in bringing down the barriers that separate us than pretending that those barriers don't exist.

From my perspective the barriers are an illusion that every individual have to tear down. Once done, there's no reason to recognize the barrier anymore and you are better of to tell others that "hey, that barrier is just an illusion, trust me". I do not recognize a friend as "my friend, the arab muslim". I recognize a friend as "my friend, mr hillarious" or "she, the deep one, kind but with many issues". Social traits, not racial or ethnic.

 

[Prime Junta]

Sadly, the barriers aren't illusions. If they were, you could simply ignore them. That doesn't work, any more than ignoring a wall lets you walk through it. What does work is recognizing that the barriers are there, and then working to reach over them and wear them down.

Oh, and, thanks for the flattery; it was very... flattering, but I still don't believe that my consciousness is so tremendously superior to most people's that I have to dumb down my words when talking to them. I prefer just to try to explain myself if there are misunderstandings, which there invariably are, given the ridiculously low bandwidth with which language saddles us.

As to those natural instincts, curiosity is a natural instinct too, and it's usually the one that surfaces when I run into something or someone different. In fact, when I've been looking at how children relate to each other and people in general, I'd even say that curiosity comes naturally but fear has to be cultivated. It's most likely individual, too; those Myers-Briggs tests give me the same personality type as Dr. Hackenbush here, which may or may not mean anything.

Finally, I don't give a tinker's cuss about race as a genetic concept. "Race" as we're talking about it here *is* cultural -- or rather, it's a visible marker of a cultural identity; one among many others. It's no different than language, and very little different than religion.

(My wife often reads Marie Claire, a French women's magazine. I remember an interesting number they did, where they very carefully made up and styled a (white) French woman to turn her into une black, and then sent her out into the Paris nightlife. The job was good enough that nobody suspected any skulduggery, and the write-up of her experience was an interesting read.)

 

[skavenhorde]

Your experience is way above average which means that the "reality" that you take for granted is more than an average individual is able to comprehend. Furthermore, you have broken down plenty of natural instincts that you were born with. People with less experience than you still live with instincts that give them mistrust or fear. Before you can debate race you must first verify that whoever you talk to have the same stage of raised consciousness as you have.

I consider myself an "average" individual and I can tell you that PJ is not beyond my ability to comprehend. That has got to be the funniest line I've heard all day. However, your point of view is very strange to me. I guess it has to do with the fact that I grew up and was friends with many different races.

What you said about natural instincts is the strangest part. When I was a kid there was no natural instinct of mistrust or fear, only curiosity. Only later in High School did that BS start to show itself within the different groups. I would think it has more to do with society than any instinct.

 

[Prime Junta]

I consider myself an "average" individual

That makes you highly unusual. Almost everyone considers themselves significantly above average. I certainly do.

 

[JemyM]

Sadly, the barriers aren't illusions. If they were, you could simply ignore them. That doesn't work, any more than ignoring a wall lets you walk through it. What does work is recognizing that the barriers are there, and then working to reach over them and wear them down.

Everyone build up generalisations within their mind. We connect traits with other traits automatically. When we out of instinct begin to mix social traits with skin pigment we are building an illusion. We see patterns that simply arent there. Disconnecting the idea that skin pigment tells you something about the individual is something which takes experience.

As to those natural instincts, curiosity is a natural instinct too, and it's usually the one that surfaces when I run into something or someone different. In fact, when I've been looking at how children relate to each other and people in general, I'd even say that curiosity comes naturally but fear has to be cultivated.

I think the instincts are natural, but how we connect them are cultural. We normally teach our kids to be aware of danger. We teach them to be cautious so they do not harm themselves. Kids react by being cautious against odd things, the unknown. And if you burn yourself once, that experience sticks to the mind and might make you to do irrational mistakes later on because you have learned how to misjudge the situation. Xenophobia is so common it's a norm, but what we seen as strange is different in each individual.

Finally, I don't give a tinker's cuss about race as a genetic concept. "Race" as we're talking about it here *is* cultural -- or rather, it's a visible marker of a cultural identity; one among many others. It's no different than language, and very little different than religion.

A skin pigment tells you pretty much nothing about the persons opinions, but if one declares him/herself a "muslim" you might be able to guess his/her opinions with more hits than misses. While there are muslims who do drink for example, if you guess that the person have issues against alcohol you are more likely to be right than wrong.

(My wife often reads Marie Claire, a French women's magazine. I remember an interesting number they did, where they very carefully made up and styled a (white) French woman to turn her into une black, and then sent her out into the Paris nightlife. The job was good enough that nobody suspected any skulduggery, and the write-up of her experience was an interesting read.)

I do not doubt that it's a different experience to be white or arab in Sweden with prejudice all over. That doesn't mean that a person regardless of race is better off with their own racial group than with people who share their interests.

 

[JemyM]

I consider myself an "average" individual and I can tell you that PJ is not beyond my ability to comprehend. That has got to be the funniest line I've heard all day.

I doubt you belong to the group I refer to as average.

However, your point of view is very strange to me. I guess it has to do with the fact that I grew up and was friends with many different races.

Probably.

What you said about natural instincts is the strangest part. When I was a kid there was no natural instinct of mistrust or fear, only curiosity. Only later in High School did that BS start to show itself within the different groups. I would think it has more to do with society than any instinct.

The teenage years is usually the time in which most westerners start to seek their own identity and go through a difficult time with lots of frustration and aggrevation. This means that seeing the difference between "we and them" grows along with expectations from friends, such as being lojal, fitting the norms etc. This is indeed cultural but the instincts behind it isnt. But if you are at that point taught to disregard race as a social trait, you have one less identity trait to associate yourself with.

 

[skavenhorde]

I doubt you belong to the group I refer to as average.

Then your average is utterly bizarre in my mind. Everywhere you go, hell even in Taiwan, you will see races mixing together. Whether or not they get along I would believe has a lot to do with culture and society and nothing to do with instinct. For god sakes teach a first grade class and you will see there is no natural hatred of the unknown or different. Actually its quite the opposite.

The teenage years is usually the time in which most westerners start to seek their own identity and go through a difficult time with lots of frustration and aggrevation. This means that seeing the difference between "we and them" grows along with expectations from friends, such as being lojal, fitting the norms etc. This is indeed cultural but the instincts behind it isnt. But if you are at that point taught to disregard race as a social trait, you have one less identity trait to associate yourself with.

Only "westerners" go through that? lol silly me I thought that was a shared trait with every single human on the planet. Anyways, I'll let you live in your reality and I'll live in mine because I don't see this inborn trait at all in the school I teach at or in my life. I see racism everywhere but not a natural born racism.

 

[JemyM]

Then your average is utterly bizarre in my mind.

This is simple cognitive psychology. Your assumptions, beliefs and reactions is the result of past experiences.

If you have a lot of exposure to environments/events/people etc you will develop a mind that is used to diversity and more likely to treat new events as new and unique, maybe even enjoyable or challenging. If you have limited exposure as well as a reason to feel insecurity, danger etc, you are more likely to develop a distaste for whatever doesn't fit your limited sense upon how things should be.

Everywhere you go, hell even in Taiwan, you will see races mixing together. Whether or not they get along I would believe has a lot to do with culture and society and nothing to do with instinct. For god sakes teach a first grade class and you will see there is no natural hatred of the unknown or different. Actually its quite the opposite.

A first grader have no responsibilities. They always have someone to take care of them, to protect them, to tell them what to do. They do not need to make decisions. They do not need to judge risks etc. All of this begins during teenagehood when given more freedom and more responsibilities. At that point people begin to demand that you act in certain ways, but how you are meant to fit in and be recognized for who you are is confusing. There's also a lot of competition going on and you are met with constant challenges. Feeling insecure at this point is common. When you are insecure, being part of a group is a way to feel stronger. Being "radical" at this moment is nothing special and you usually get an absolute black/white worldview. This is usually the point in which racial prejudice is formed along with other prejudices.

Only "westerners" go through that? lol silly me I thought that was a shared trait with every single human on the planet.

Identity conflict, rebellion against parents etc is a phenomenon in western culture. It's a result of how our culture promotes individualism. It doesn't exist in many cultures around the world.

Anyways, I'll let you live in your reality and I'll live in mine because I don't see this inborn trait at all in the school I teach at or in my life. I see racism everywhere but not a natural born racism.

You are not born racist. You are born with the instincts that make you one.

 

[Corwin]

I don't believe ANYONE is born racist, I agree with a song in the musical South Pacific:- You HAve to be Taught to be a racist. Unfortunately, family often is the teacher.

 

[JDR13]

Nope, it's not the media. It's simply that if one of your parents, or even one of your grandparents, is black, American society treats you as black rather than white. The media simply reflect that reality.

So by "American society" you mean eveyone, not just whites I assume. I also beg to differ if you think the media is totally blameless.

 

[elkston]

Let me offer some perspective, as a black American.

First of all, I support Barack Obama because I tend to vote Democratic and in this election, there is such a stark difference between what these candidates offer that it really is no contest in my mind.

Obama: Bold plans, unshakable confidence, inspiring, steady leadership, impressive grass-roots campaign, tough when it counts but knows how to unify people otherwise.

McCain: Quasi-Bush agenda, erratic & disorganized leadership, unnervingly bellicose foreign policy, crass and repelling personality when put under stress, fumbled his first BIG decision by picking Sarah Palin, inability to learn from past mistakes

And yes, the fact that Obama is black (I know he is half white, but he looks black, identifies himself as black, and in THIS country if your father is black, you are BLACK) makes me proud and does affect how I view him. Its something you just wouldn't understand unless you were black and lived in the US. You are contstantly bombarded with negative images and low expectations. Even if you happen to be "outside the stereotype", you still somehow bear the responsibility of every black person that fucks up. That's the price you pay for being a minorty.

So if anything, Obama is that public "proof" that YES: intelligent, successfull, law-abiding blacks DO exist. It sounds outrageous that this must be asserted, but you would be surprised at how many whites (esp. those who haven't been to college) think all blacks live in the ghetto and listen to rap music.

That being said, if Obama had the same policies as McCain, he would not get my vote. Its the same reason Alan Keyes doesn't get a lot of AA support, even though he is "blacker" than Obama.

Also, had Hillary Clinton prevailed, I would have been in her corner in a heartbeat. I respect her immensely.

If Obama wins, I will be estatic and hopeful for the future of race relations in America. However, it is absolutely not the end of racism and in fact, I expect a backlash from extreme elments who for one reason or another cannot accept a black President. Obama is a massive step forward, but the black community as whole still needs to own more businesses, have more college graduates, and have fewer males in prison. Obama cannot make these changes, (nor has he promised to. Don't fall for the RW racist BS about Obama "giving away the store" to blacks) but he CAN stand a symbol for achievement and America. I feel it would be a massive boost for young black males in the "wrong part of town" to see Obama on the screen taking care of business instead of gangsta-rap stars.

If Obama loses despite having a lead in the polls going into election day, I will be devasted. I could possibly lose faith in the synergy and cooperation of racial groups in America. It will leave the country divded, and not to mention, at risk.

I tell you what. The greatest fear amongst black Obama supporters is that whites who say they will vote for him get in the voting booth and do otherwise. I will not feel comfortable until Obama has a steady 10-point or more national lead.

And as for blatantninja's prediction that a possible President Obama cannot meet the massive challenges that lay ahead, just you wait! You might be surprised at this man!

 

[JDR13]

McCain: Quasi-Bush agenda, erratic & disorganized leadership, unnervingly bellicose foreign policy, crass and repelling personality when put under stress, fumbled his first BIG decision by picking Sarah Palin, inability to learn from past mistakes!

I couldn't agree more, especially as I sit here and watch Palin flounder in her pathetic attempt of a debate against Joe Biden. No surprise really, her incompetence has been apparent for some time now.

So if anything, Obama is that public "proof" that YES: intelligent, successfull, law-abiding blacks DO exist. It sounds outrageous that this must be asserted, but you would be surprised at how many whites (esp. those who haven't been to college) think all blacks live in the ghetto and listen to rap music.

I really don't think Obama's success tells us anything that wasn't already obvious to anyone who's not a complete idiot. Of course I'm also not naive enough to believe there aren't a lot of ignorant whites who think exactly as you describe. While I'm sure education does play a part as per your example, I tend to think that geography also has a lot to do with white perception. IE: Whites who grew up in all white areas, without any meaningful interaction with minorities.

 

[magerette]

I couldn't agree more, especially as I sit here and watch Palin flounder in her pathetic attempt of a debate against Joe Biden. No surprise really, her incompetence has been apparent for some time now.

I thought she did much better than in her recent interviews. Geraldine Ferraro was proud of her and all.

 

[Prime Junta]

So by "American society" you mean eveyone, not just whites I assume. I also beg to differ if you think the media is totally blameless.

Of course. I thought I made that pretty clear a few posts up:

But he *is* black, and that *does* make a difference to the way he sees himself, and the way American voters -- black, white, brown, yellow, red, Jewish, Arab, whatever -- see him. It's no use pretending that he isn't, or it doesn't.

And no, the media are not blameless; they could certainly be doing more not to perpetuate the stereotypes that drive this thing. But this is not primarily a media issue; it is a reality that goes far broader and deeper than that.

 

[Prime Junta]

I tell you what. The greatest fear amongst black Obama supporters is that whites who say they will vote for him get in the voting booth and do otherwise. I will not feel comfortable until Obama has a steady 10-point or more national lead.

That's an understandable fear, but I don't think it's all that likely that the polls are off by several points due to this reason. The same source of systematic error was present during the primaries, and some polls proved quite accurate at predicting the outcomes there.

IOW, if your nightmare scenario does happen, it's far more likely to be a case of good old-fashioned electoral fraud than whites lying to the pollsters. Check out this site -- the methodology for ferreting out errors in the polls and sorting out what they really mean is as sound as it gets; among other things, he factors in how good the different polls proved at predicting the primary results.

At this writing, he gives Obama an 83.8% chance of winning, and a 24.31% chance of winning in a landslide (375+ electoral college votes).

But 16% is still a very real possibility -- about the same as the odds of your birthday falling on a Wednesday. So it ain't over yet.

 

[Benedict]

At this writing, he gives Obama an 83.8% chance of winning, and a 24.31% chance of winning in a landslide (375+ electoral college votes).

Man that'd be a good day.

I reckon the stock markets would jump quite a bit.

 

[Prime Junta]

McCain's "throw $1T at it without oversight" idea would make it jump even more.

 

[dteowner]

Thanks for posting, Elkston. I'd like to dig a little deeper at my original question, though, if you're willing.

Let's assume that the economic/political deck is stacked against the next president so badly that the Galactic Spaghetti Monster of Doom couldn't accomplish anything, let alone mere mortals like McCain or Obama. If Obama gets elected and fails, do you worry that the failure will be chalked up to Obama being black rather than attributed to an unwinnable situation? That would clearly be a huge step backwards for racial relations.

As a side note in response to JemyM, I think it's very telling that Elkston uses the phrase, "black community". If that instinctive tribalism was bad in and of itself, I wouldn't think Elkston would use the phrase. Certainly, some people use those dividing lines for ill purpose, but claiming they don't exist is just silly.

 

[JemyM]

If that instinctive tribalism was bad in and of itself, I wouldn't think Elkston would use the phrase.

So your argument for something being right is that people do it?

Certainly, some people use those dividing lines for ill purpose, but claiming they don't exist is just silly.

Stating that something you can see with the naked eye doesn't exist is delusional. Pushing that something you see is unimportant or doesn't matter isn't.
There is an advantage of downscaling unneccessary dividing lines as we by nature have the habit to assign negative values to the group we do not perceive as "us".

 

[Prime Junta]

There is an advantage of downscaling unneccessary dividing lines as we by nature have the habit to assign negative values to the group we do not perceive as "us".

Do we?

I submit that:

(1) We have an extremely strong tendency to organize ourselves into communities, both real and imaginary. This tendency is rooted in our biological heritage as social primates, and is, for most of us, impossible to break without deep and permanent psychological damage.

(2) We have two opposing instinctive tendencies to react to unfamiliar groups that we do not perceive as "us:" curiosity and fear.

(a) Curiosity leads us to pursue opportunities that interaction with this "other" allows us; this manifests in things like trade, transmission of cultural influences and innovations, and so on.

(b) Fear leads us to ascribe negative attributes to the unknown, shun interaction with it, and defend ourselves from the threats -- perceived or real -- that it may pose.

(3) These two instincts cannot effectively coexist about the same out-group, over the long term. One or the other must triumph. If the opportunities opened up by curiosity prove beneficial, this becomes a self-reinforcing cycle. If the threats perceived by fear prove harmful, this too becomes a self-reinforcing cycle.

(4) In order to indulge our curiosity about an object, we must first conceptualize the object. Without this, we have nothing on which we can pin the results of our curiosity: in order to understand an object, we must have some kind of working definition of it.

(5) Therefore, I submit that:
(a) Because of point (1) above, it is futile to attempt to define in-groups and out-groups out of existence;
(c) Because of points (2) and (3) above, there exists a moral imperative to indulge our curiosity rather than our fear about out-groups;
(d) As described in point (4) above, attempting to define in-groups and out-groups out of existence will simply make it more difficult to indulge our curiosity about them.

Therefore, attempting to define out-groups out of existence is both counterproductive and morally untenable. Q.E.D.