Racism and President Obama

If 6.5 billion people could contribute to a culture, do you really think it can become a monoculture?

We already do. The global super-community exists as well, in some form. But that super-culture is a product of all the cultures that contribute to it.

I've observed at fairly close quarters how the Fenno-Ugric cultures in Russia and Siberia have withered; their traditions, songs, literature, and way of life slowly but relentlessly eradicated, largely through the destruction of their languages. That doesn't mean that, say, the Komi or the Mari shouldn't learn Russian. But it means that once the last native Mari-speaker dies, we will all be a little bit poorer.

Culture have melted together for a long time now and this isn't neccessary a bad thing. When cultures mix, new cultures are formed.

But they die so much more quickly than they evolve. Cultural evolution is not unlike biological evolution in that sense -- species can become extinct much more quickly than they evolve. Loss of cultural diversity is as devastating to humanity as loss of biodiversity is to the ecosystem.

Ah. I confused "Under the North Star" with a song.

I have grown up with the Swedish language, but if I lived up with English and then read Natives of Hemsö (August Strindberg), The Long Ships (Frans Gunnar Bengtsson) or The Emigrants (Vilhelm Moberg) I doubt I would have missed out. A Swede who now lives in the US and cannot speak Swedish but still seek their Swedish heritage would probably be able to enjoy each one of them. The Long Ships is entertaining even for one who aren't interested in Sweden but is still interested in an European modern take on the Odyssey. I know I enjoy the tale about King Arthur or Beowulf. I do not think culture or heritage is less interesting just because it's delivered in English. If I ever got around to read Kalevala, I would read it in Swedish or English and I wouldn't cry for not being able to understand the Finnish version. I have two translations of the Bible, two Swedish translations of the Qur'an, a Swedish translation of Dammapada and a Swedish Bhagavad Gita. The fact that I have them in Swedish (or English) means that I can enjoy thoughts of another culture that I wouldn't be able to enjoy if I had to learn languages like Arabic just to get it.

Not less interesting, perhaps, but nevertheless poorer, less nuanced. Someone compared reading a book in translation to looking at a Persian rug from the back. You can see all the detail and craftmanship that went into it, and admire the pattern, but it's still a pale reflection of what it's meant to be. I have read the Kalevala both in Finnish and in English and French translations, and the experience is different.

I've read the Qur'an in two translations, a "literary" Finnish one, and an "academic" French one. I believe the former got closer in "feel" to experiencing it in Arabic, but I entirely believe my Arab friends who tell me that it just cannot be properly appreciated in any other form than the original.

Language is like music, or dance, or poetry, or any other really complex cultural art form. It has a truth and a beauty in and of itself, quite apart from the truth and beauty of any artifacts woven with it. I value language for its own sake, and I believe we are poorer if we lose our linguistic riches, and not only because there won't be anyone left to admire those rugs right side up.
 
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I do not see a debate as a competition anymore. I see it as a way to testing ones opinions and an opportunity to learn more.

Yes, I noticed a dramatic change in tone from your part, and I both appreciate and thank you for it.
 
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A bit unrelated to the recent topic, but Bill Maher made a quite funny twist on the whole "race of the president" debate at the end of his "New Rules" from August 26.
 
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It's probably a little unfair for me to have signed you up as the sole spokesman for a broad and diverse community, so I appreciate your efforts.
Negative actions of blacks in the public eye become the ownership of *all* blacks in America. Like it or not, this is the cornerstone of white privilege: if you have the majority and the power, you get to define the public perception of the "other" people. This makes it more difficult (but not impossible) for blacks to distinguish themselves as individuals rather than being branded with a racial blueprint.
I'm really puzzled by my reactions to this paragraph. It's very good.

The first sentence was quite the revelation when I really considered it. It's basic, and even somewhat obvious, but I'd never really thought about it that way. OJ getting away with murder shouldn't change my opinion of the black community, and yet it does. So why is that?

The second sentence completely spoiled the effect for me. Immediately, I thought, "Awww, here comes the excuses." I answered my own question: the black community owns OJ's, ummmm, evil (?) because a portion of that community (The Jesses and Als and Johnnie Cochrans) proudly claimed it. Seems like a very bad thing to claim. Why would they do that?

The third sentence brought me back around a bit. Certainly, there's a kernel of truth in your second sentence, since the very concept of "black community" is an extremely broad brush. I wonder, though, who is truly doing the painting? "Nigger" is a hurtful word, but how can it be so hurtful that OJ can get away with murder because some stupid cop says it? BTW, I apologize for beating the OJ horse's corpse--it's a well known example that contains all the facets I want to highlight, but I'm well aware it's not the end-all, be-all of race relations. Can rap groups really co-opt a word that is that hurtful? If successful blacks are written off as exceptions in a gangsta world (and I'm not certain I could refute that), why would the black community embrace and glorify that demeaning gangsta archetype? Why are Michael Jordan and Tupac the pillars of black success instead of Colin Powell? That seems to border on self-induced failure.
 
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*Does* the black community embrace and glorify the gangsta archetype -- or only a highly visible fraction of the ghetto-ized, marginalized part of the black community?
 
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I'm not sure how I'd go about answering that one, PJ. If they're highly visible as you say, they're going to dominate the discourse, since that's pretty much the definition of visibility. Even if only a portion are talking as you say, that would still be all there is to hear, yes, which was my point. I'm certainly in waters that aren't on my sea charts, though, so I'm quite willing to be corrected.

@JDR- yeah, I'll probably be fitted for a white hood followed by a pine box within 20 posts, but I'm going to do my best to stay genuine and respectful. I think it's a conversation that is worth having.
 
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Why are Michael Jordan and Tupac the pillars of black success instead of Colin Powell? That seems to border on self-induced failure.

That's a really difficult question, but I'd say possibly because for every Colin Powell there are twenty Jordans and Tupacs. And my guess is that's because being an athlete is an accessible road to anyone who attends even a minimal ghetto public school but has physical ability, whereas being a Colin Powell probably requires a college education, among other things.

Historically in America, African Americans have had two acceptable arenas for success--or rather the barriers fell earliest in these arenas--sports and entertainment. Both are based not on an individual having financial or social support, but upon intangibles like talent and charisma. (Not to imply that C.P. doesn't have either or both, of course.)

It's my understanding that Colin Powell is a self-made man, but I question whether forty years ago he would have been able to become a General and a member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. It's a sign of progress to me, and I think we'll see many more such examples.

My $.02 anyway.
 
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@JDR- yeah, I'll probably be fitted for a white hood followed by a pine box within 20 posts, but I'm going to do my best to stay genuine and respectful. I think it's a conversation that is worth having.


There was nothing wrong with your post whatsoever, although I don't doubt certain people might attempt to spin it in a different way. It was a legitimate question.
 
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I'm not sure how I'd go about answering that one, PJ. If they're highly visible as you say, they're going to dominate the discourse, since that's pretty much the definition of visibility. Even if only a portion are talking as you say, that would still be all there is to hear, yes, which was my point. I'm certainly in waters that aren't on my sea charts, though, so I'm quite willing to be corrected.

Feedback loops. Stereotypes are self-perpetuating, both for good and bad. That, I think, is what elkston has been getting at, when he says that OJ Simpson's failures belong to the entire black community, whereas George W. Bush's failures do not belong to the entire white community.

It's much easier to reinforce an existing stereotype than to break it. And, conversely, every black making good somehow reflects well on the white community -- "here's someone who did good despite being black, and look at how well we did by not stopping him." The black community gets to own their failures, but gets no credit for their successes. This, naturally, makes it much easier for blacks to fail than to succeed. It becomes a self-perpetuating vicious circle that's very tough to break out of.

There's nothing particularly American about this, by the way -- it works this way everywhere you have a marginalized community with negative stereotypes attached to it. In Europe, the Roma are treated just as badly at best, and much worse at worst.
 
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We already do. The global super-community exists as well, in some form. But that super-culture is a product of all the cultures that contribute to it.

It is. I do consider this an amazing time to live in since foreign cultures are much more accessible thanks to internet.

I've observed at fairly close quarters how the Fenno-Ugric cultures in Russia and Siberia have withered; their traditions, songs, literature, and way of life slowly but relentlessly eradicated, largely through the destruction of their languages. That doesn't mean that, say, the Komi or the Mari shouldn't learn Russian. But it means that once the last native Mari-speaker dies, we will all be a little bit poorer.
But they die so much more quickly than they evolve. Cultural evolution is not unlike biological evolution in that sense -- species can become extinct much more quickly than they evolve. Loss of cultural diversity is as devastating to humanity as loss of biodiversity is to the ecosystem.

I guess it all depends on how accessible you can make that culture and what it contributes to the world. Cultural traditions is interesting to study because by studying foreign cultures you get perspectives to your own culture and your own life. However, there are cultural traditions that have no more value than anecdotes in historybooks.

The good part with living in the digital era is that songs and literature can be recorded and shared in a way that wasn't possible in previous generations.

Not less interesting, perhaps, but nevertheless poorer, less nuanced. Someone compared reading a book in translation to looking at a Persian rug from the back. You can see all the detail and craftmanship that went into it, and admire the pattern, but it's still a pale reflection of what it's meant to be. I have read the Kalevala both in Finnish and in English and French translations, and the experience is different.

Naturally, when a person who already know both languages and compare the native version (on his/her mothers tongue) with the translation, he/she will naturally experience the translation as pale. But this have more to do with personal nostalgia.

You know the language. You have lived with the language all of your life. It's part of you and your communication. Almost every experience you ever did is tied to that language. I, however, wouldn't get anything from Kalevala in Finnish as I haven't lived with that language, nor do I understand the nuanced meaning that you have throughout your life tied to each word. It's not the language itself that create the experience you feel, it's how the text responds to the complex neurological network in your head, forged by your unique individual experience. If you had never ever spoken Finnish, you would get the exact same experience as I do.

Compare this with the Bible. All over the world there are people who live their entire lives by the bible. They consider it their moral compass and it's the most important book they ever read. Some passages might boil up incredible emotions. Some quotes can be used to describe your situation perfectly or how to act in specific situations.

But what % of all those understands Arameic, Greek or Hebrew?

I've read the Qur'an in two translations, a "literary" Finnish one, and an "academic" French one. I believe the former got closer in "feel" to experiencing it in Arabic, but I entirely believe my Arab friends who tell me that it just cannot be properly appreciated in any other form than the original.

I have an academic version and a more "muslim friendly" version. The academic version is basicly saying "this is what the book say" and pay little attention to how muslims themselves commonly interpret the passages. There are no "soft" translations in it, if a passage sounds barbaric at first, there's no attempt to trying to find a softer translation. The other version pay great attention to try to be true to as many different meanings as possible and it also contains apologetics, explanations etc. The second version is called "The Message of the Qur'an" rather than the "Qur'an" as an open confession that it's a translation and not the arabic original.

Language is like music, or dance, or poetry, or any other really complex cultural art form. It has a truth and a beauty in and of itself, quite apart from the truth and beauty of any artifacts woven with it. I value language for its own sake, and I believe we are poorer if we lose our linguistic riches, and not only because there won't be anyone left to admire those rugs right side up.

Oh well. I guess I have to confess that I do enjoy some songs in languages that I cannot understand.
 
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I guess it all depends on how accessible you can make that culture and what it contributes to the world. Cultural traditions is interesting to study because by studying foreign cultures you get perspectives to your own culture and your own life.

I believe that cultural traditions are valuable for their own sake. If a Papua New Guinean tribe that has had no contact with the outside world dies out, and its dialect, traditions, songs, art, artifacts, knowledge, and everything else dies out with it, we will be poorer.

However, there are cultural traditions that have no more value than anecdotes in historybooks.

No argument there.

Naturally, when a person who already know both languages and compare the native version (on his/her mothers tongue) with the translation, he/she will naturally experience the translation as pale. But this have more to do with personal nostalgia.

I speak four languages fluently enough to be able to read just about anything in them without having to reach for a dictionary, and I get the same experience with all of them: a work read in the original is more nuanced, richer, subtler than the same work read in translation, even if the translation is a very good one. Take _The Lord Of The Rings_, for example. The Finnish translation was made as a labor of love by two of the best translators we have, poets and authors in their own right. The result was beautiful. But compared to Tolkien's original, it was... not the same. The difference was subtle; I could perhaps compare it to looking at a really beautiful photograph on a really good computer screen, and then seeing the same photograph in a masterfully crafted print of the same size.

You know the language. You have lived with the language all of your life. It's part of you and your communication. Almost every experience you ever did is tied to that language. I, however, wouldn't get anything from Kalevala in Finnish as I haven't lived with that language, nor do I understand the nuanced meaning that you have throughout your life tied to each word. It's not the language itself that create the experience you feel, it's how the text responds to the complex neurological network in your head, forged by your unique individual experience. If you had never ever spoken Finnish, you would get the exact same experience as I do.

Which is my point, really. If the language is lost, the complex set of nuances and meanings and connections that it embodies is lost too, and the original way of experiencing the works created in it are lost as well. I don't know ancient Greek, but somehow I would be terribly sad if I learned one day that there was nobody left who could read Homer in the original; I'd feel that all of us would be poorer as a result.
 
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dteowner,

I am encouraged that you are at least viewing things from another perspective. That is my goal. I am also not going to take shots at you. If we are going to make any progress in "race relations" then both sides have to listen. It must be a two way street. :)

And btw, if you believe in karma, then OJ Simpson got what was coming to him (well, somewhat at least) yesterday. Guilty on all counts in his Las Vegas robbery trial. Looking at maybe a decade or more in the slammer.
 
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As far as OJ goes, I suppose my joy at this court decision isn't that functionally distant from Jesse and Al celebrating when he got off for murder, although I'd like to believe I'm celebrating justice rather than racial angles. Probably not a particularly good position for me, though.

Maybe we need to dig into media coverage a little deeper, then. Thru some satanic pact, Jesse and Al have become the standard bearers for the black community in the media. It's truly unfortunate that they choose to use those positions to highlight situations that reflect poorly on blacks. Whether rejoicing at OJ's triumph, attempting to justify the LA riots, or defending the University of Michigan admissions quotas, those two always seem to be standing waist-deep in sewage. Why wouldn't those two use their positions of influence to drag the media to Howard U's graduation, or to shake hands with a young Barack when he kicks ass at Harvard Law? Do we really want to believe that the media will only turn on the spotlights if those two are standing in shit (I'm not buying it)? If we swallow that, are we ready to believe that Jesse and Al are both too stupid to see the manipulation (IMO, for all their faults, Jesse at the minimum is clearly very intelligent--I have to admit I'm not impressed with Al)?
 
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Old habits die hard. The civil rights movement was largely about drawing attention to screaming injustices -- you know, the back of the bus, restrictions on voting, segregated schools, lynchings, that sort of thing. It's not at all easy to suddenly shift gears and start drawing attention to positive role models and positive developments.

I agree, though, that you need more of that sort of thing. Simply listing grievances, past and present, real and imagined, will only go so far.
 
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I understand that "the struggle goes on", but the civil rights movement was 40 years ago, PJ. Does the ship really turn that slowly?
 
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I understand that "the struggle goes on", but the civil rights movement was 40 years ago, PJ. Does the ship really turn that slowly?

I've tried to point out this generational thing in talking with JDR. Yes, the change has been extreme in the last forty years. What generation are Al, Jesse, and Rev Wright? They're my generational peers. We see race much more starkly, I think, as a battlefront, not a post-war peace negotiation where both sides have comparable power. You can tell by my own phraseology and point of view that I see racism totally differently than JDR or you do.

In my youth, the idea of " reverse racism" was just non-existent. It physically couldn't happen. I don't think it's a good thing that people percieve it as happening now, but it's a product of what had to be done to level a playing field. It's up to your generation to take it to the next level.
 
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In my youth, the idea of " reverse racism" was just non-existent. It physically couldn't happen. I don't think it's a good thing that people percieve it as happening now, but it's a product of what had to be done to level a playing field. It's up to your generation to take it to the next level.


People have no choice but to "perceive" reverse racism, because it exists. Although I've never liked the term "reverse" racism, because there's really no such thing. It's just racism pure and simple, it doesn't make a difference which direction it's going.
 
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People have no choice but to "perceive" reverse racism, because it exists. Although I've never liked the term "reverse" racism, because there's really no such thing. It's just racism pure and simple, it doesn't make a difference which direction it's going.

Totally agree. Didn't mean to parse words. If I used the word perceived, it's because in my own life, I haven't experienced much racism directed at me from African Americans, or anyone else. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, of course.
 
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