RPGWatch GOTY 2011

[Roll-A-Dice]

@rune_74 tongue totally in cheek!
Skyrim may not win here even though it's the best game by far. There is a click that loves to hate on Bethesda and I believe we were recently infected by the Codex, so that will skew the numbers towards something else, if they're allowed to vote Also, some will be so jealous that it's an American-made AAA title that they'll vote against it in a pique. Alrik will vote for anything European (especially German), for example.

There were so many good games this year. I really enjoyed 2W2, though the expansion was kinda blah in my opinion. Deus Ex was awesome and Drakensang was solid. I'm not big into the indie scene but the eyebrow game was very popular here for a while and Jeff finally released something that wasn't Avernum/Exile/Geneforge. Best year I can remember in ages.

Skyrim,
Shitty AI that constantly gets itself killed.
Physics bugs than randomly kill you for no reason.
Saving bugs.
Severe crashing issues
Built for hardware that is 4 years out of date
Unoptimised so it goes slower on significantly better hardware than it's requirements state.
Mixed texture resolutions leading poor graphical quality.
Everything looks like it's been covered in dirt
Poorly and inconsitantly paced plot, with questionable quality
Designers in it for the cool factor.

Daikatana,
Shitty AI that constantly gets itself killed.
Physics bugs than randomly kill you for no reason.
Saving bugs.
Severe crashing issues
Built for hardware that is 4 years out of date
Unoptimised so it goes slower on significantly better hardware than it's requirements state.
Mixed texture resolutions leading poor graphical quality.
Everything looks like it's been covered in dirt
Poorly and inconsitantly paced plot, with questionable quality
Designers in it for the cool factor

When the comparison is that easy and that accurate, it becomes a shitty game, no matter what the media tells you.

Freyed Knights gets my vote because it's really the only actual RPG on that list I've played.

 

[rune_74]

Skyrim,
Shitty AI that constantly gets itself killed.
Physics bugs than randomly kill you for no reason.
Saving bugs.
Severe crashing issues
Built for hardware that is 4 years out of date
Unoptimised so it goes slower on significantly better hardware than it's requirements state.
Mixed texture resolutions leading poor graphical quality.
Everything looks like it's been covered in dirt
Poorly and inconsitantly paced plot, with questionable quality
Designers in it for the cool factor.

Daikatana,
Shitty AI that constantly gets itself killed.
Physics bugs than randomly kill you for no reason.
Saving bugs.
Severe crashing issues
Built for hardware that is 4 years out of date
Unoptimised so it goes slower on significantly better hardware than it's requirements state.
Mixed texture resolutions leading poor graphical quality.
Everything looks like it's been covered in dirt
Poorly and inconsitantly paced plot, with questionable quality
Designers in it for the cool factor

When the comparison is that easy and that accurate, it becomes a shitty game, no matter what the media tells you.

Freyed Knights gets my vote because it's really the only actual RPG on that list I've played.

wow, if you totally skew reality and pump in the haterade then sure....what planet our you from?

CRPGnut I'm well aware it won't win here for all those reasons, even though it should. Sure you can pick at little things and hold it up as this is why it sucks, but at the end of the day it gets more play time then any other game on the list that tells me it's a winner.

 

[Roll-A-Dice]

wow, if you totally skew reality and pump in the haterade then sure….what planet our you from?

CRPGnut I'm well aware it won't win here for all those reasons, even though it should. Sure you can pick at little things and hold it up as this is why it sucks, but at the end of the day it gets more play time then any other game on the list that tells me it's a winner.

I've played skyrim for 28.7 hours according to steam. I've played Frayed Knights for 30, and TW2 for 40,

If you really want to get into it, I've played DUNGEON DEFENDERS more than any other game this year. 104 hours. Next would be Saints Row 3 at 60 hours.

I also note that you didn't attempt to even counter my laughably easy to counter claims, you just accuse me of pouring on the hatorade, and not blindly following the crowd.

 

[CountChocula]

Also, I think DLCs should also be on the list. Honest Hearts, Old World Blues and Lonesome Road are all 2011 releases and qualify to be on the list, either individually or under the umbrella of FNV.

As much as I enjoyed those DLC, it doesn't seem to make much sense for the Watch to announce "Old World Blues" as GOTY.

Perhaps there will be some sort of separate DLC category?

 

[rune_74]

I've played skyrim for 28.7 hours according to steam. I've played Frayed Knights for 30, and TW2 for 40,

If you really want to get into it, I've played DUNGEON DEFENDERS more than any other game this year. 104 hours. Next would be Saints Row 3 at 60 hours.

I also note that you didn't attempt to even counter my laughably easy to counter claims, you just accuse me of pouring on the hatorade, and not blindly following the crowd.

None of what you posted was fact, it was opinion. I don't argue with codex members because they believe opinion is fact. at 28 hours you have barely done anything in skyrim...there is so much to do I'm shocked that you only had 28. To me it was my RPG of the year...the witcher 2 probably 2nd. I bought frayed knights as well, mostly to support a fellow poster as to try it...haven't played it nearly enough. I'm really at a loss as to how anyone can say that skyrim looks bad...some of the vistas and general suroundings were breath taking to me.

Like I said, easily my game of the year...and thats an opinion not a fact

 

[CountChocula]

I don't think I had even reached Bleak Falls Barrow yet at 28 hours.

 

[Roll-A-Dice]

None of what you posted was fact, it was opinion. I don't argue with codex members because they believe opinion is fact. at 28 hours you have barely done anything in skyrim…there is so much to do I'm shocked that you only had 28. To me it was my RPG of the year…the witcher 2 probably 2nd. I bought frayed knights as well, mostly to support a fellow poster as to try it…haven't played it nearly enough. I'm really at a loss as to how anyone can say that skyrim looks bad…some of the vistas and general suroundings were breath taking to me.

Like I said, easily my game of the year…and thats an opinion not a fact

To the contrary, at 28 hours, I have done all of the main quest, all of the faction quests, and all of the daedric quests. About the only thing I haven't done is become the Thane of Solitude.

Also art style wise, it's just Snowy landscape the second coming. The mountains are more like molehils, and the terrain in anyone region is mostly indistinct from other regions in the world. The only difference being the relative amount of snow.

 

[Couchpotato]

Come on we all know Skyrim will be #1. Its the in thing with every game site just like the Mass Effect series. Really we cant have different taste and love other games beside the great invincible ones. If you do your are a heathen you deserve to burn at the stake.

I wouldn't know what games to recommend as each year the genres get blurred and more confusing.

 

[villain of the story]

Skyrim may not win here even though it's the best game by far.

By far? LOL.

Skyrim, objectively lacks so many things that should have been in it for it to even compete with casual games that aren't even RPGs, like Assassin's Creed series or Arkham City or what have you.

Also, some will be so jealous that it's an American-made AAA title that they'll vote against it in a pique.

WUT.

That sounds like the kind of thing only an American would think/say.

None of what you posted was fact, it was opinion.

[+] Shitty AI that gets itself killed is not an opinion, it's a fact that can be reproduced by anyone. AI is poor. They do stupid stuff to get themselves killed. They don't even have the basic self-preservation built into them to seek for cover when a dragon comes breathing the entire yard. They fight like stupid and die like stupids. You can't even sneak properly in a dungeon with a follower because the moment your follower sees an enemy, he will go at it even if to run into a mob of the toughest Draugrs or whatever. It's only a fact that the AI is plainly and utterly dumb. It's also incapable of tactics or even simple navigation during combat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3kSmdX9gJA

There isn't even a proper state of alertness to regulate their preparedness. You kill an NPC in a dungeon in front of another one. He seeks an assailant for a while then decides that "it must have been nothing". Well, how about you start walking around a little more alert and prepared against a hostile? Your buddy just died in front of you. Assassin's Creed (to give a contemporary example) series does that far better to a certain degree.

Even Baldur's Gate had better AI, a game 10+ years old. For an AI with some tactical ability and marvellous navigational abilities in 3D, see Assassin's Creed series. Now if only combat didn't become easier by each instalment.

[+] Physics bugs that randomly kill you for no reason is not an opinion, it's a fact that can be reproduced by anyone. Clutter items that lie around can kill you because you stepped on it or hit on them. I've died simply running through a dungeon and stepping over a piece of bone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiZq_bMYUvk

[+] Severe crashing issues is not an opinion, it's a fact that can be reproduced. There were and still are various bug that can terminate your game. Severity, of course, vary from one system to another but they exist. Some people, like me, are lucky and don't experience any but a lot of people do.

[+] That it's built for hardware that is 4 years out of date is not an opinion, it's a fact. It's built for consoles, after all. And it's practically the same engine since Oblivion and the quality level of game assets haven't gone up by any significant degree. And the tech is so outdated, they can't even do shadows properly.

[+] That the game has mixed texture resolutions leading to poor graphical quality is not an opinion, it's a fact. I don't even need to explain this. It's in plain sight, all the time. If you disagree, that doesn't make it a matter of opinion but a matter of being a moron. Now, whether the game looks pretty in general despite that or not is a matter of opinion but that is not in dispute here. I personally like it a lot.

[+] That the game has a poorly and inconsitantly paced plot, with questionable quality is, well ok, I guess it could be called an opinion but you'd have to have really low standards to call it that (eg. not enough experience with other good stuff to form a healthy opinion that can hold up to scrutiny) because the way plot advances is really kind of screwed up.

This brings me to conclusion:

I don't argue because my opinion is fact.

Fixed for truth.

R00fles!!

The funniest thing is that a lot of these problems have been present in all Bethesda games since Oblivion (and to some extent, Morrowind). They are using the same tech and they are also inheriting the exact same problems with each game. All those physics bug have been around since Oblivion. AI in their games have always been poor. They have always had a very inconsistent quality of level to their game assets.

Now the only thing I'm wondering is, is this what the RPG Watch is about? Dismissing honest and often factual perspectives because some of you think the author of the piece is "dismissing a game for being an American product" or that "he's a troll from Codex anyway so I don't have to tire my precious brain and, god forbid, put it to some use"?

I think the question I'm really asking is, should those of us from the Codex return the favour some of you're paying us, of generalising and demonising your entire lot on the basis of a few sad little kids?

 

[Ovenall]

For me, Skyrim is blowing away any other game I've played this year, RPG or not. I'm only 30+ hours in and it's near my all-time favorite. I'm taking my time and (sort of) role playing, not taking every quest, not always fast travelling.

I started Witcher 2 and, um... had a hard time getting into it, so I put it away for a while. It sure is pretty though.

Batman Arkham City is my #2 GOTY (though not an RPG of course)

 

[Maylander]

Skyrim or The Witcher 2 will win this without any doubt.

 

[villain of the story]

For the record, I've played Skyrim 100+ hours and still counting. It does have an addicting quality, perfect game for those with obsessive compulsive tendencies, like me.

Here's an advice, don't rush on quests and try to do everything at once and unless you're discovering a place for the first time, use fast travel. The game can burn you out really fast due to the massive amount of content which is also immensely, annoyingly repetitive and dull.

 

[CountChocula]

They do stupid stuff to get themselves killed.

Perhaps you didn't notice this during your playthrough; however, the only way your followers can die is if you kill them yourself.

IMHO the follower system is very well done. Followers can make a huge difference in battles, but they are not as extreme as, say, Boone in FNV, who turns the game into easy mode if you travel with him because he kills everything.

What happens is when they get reduced to very low health, they drop to one knee and at that moment, they are impervious to damage from enemies and traps while they catch their breath, but you can still kill them. At the same time, the enemies are focusing on you, so you aren't simply sitting on the sidelines waiting for your follower to kill everything. Then they regain a bit of their health and join the battle renewed.

Although I loved the companion story arcs and quests in FNV, particularly Boone's, I stopped traveling with them unless I was doing their quests because they would either make combat too easy or wind up getting themselves killed. In Skyrim I'm enjoying the way that combat plays out with followers much more.

 

[villain of the story]

Is that supposed to be a (very weak and insufficient) rebuttal? Because that they couldn't be killed by others would only point to the failure of AI in that they need such a silly mechanic to survive. A good AI would be able to take care of itself to some extent in combat.

Speaking of which, they will actually die if they continue to receive damage while they are "temporarily defeated", eg. poison damage or an AoE spell or a lightning hit that does jumps between targets. And then there are the sweeping dragon attacks. I've lost many a follower to Dragon attacks. Actually it was more like me offering a free meal to Dragons, since followers run at every opportunity to die like idiots.

But some followers are invincible. Even you can not kill them.

And yes, it's only natural that followers who use god mode would obviously make a huge difference in battles. 10 years ago, that would be called "cheating". Now it's a "feature". After all, why bother with good AI when you can simply make them invincible, no

Dumbing down of the masses at best.

But while at it, I'd like to share a funny moment: I went in to this tomb with this NPC. The quest tells me "to keep the NPC alive". There's a showdown with a dozen Draugrs of various types and a boss at the end of the dungeon. This dumb SOB barges in there, literally throwing himself at a mob lynch. Well, what do you know, I don't even have to do anything because he's invincible. M-M-M-MULTILOL.

The game doesn't even give you a chance, recognize your worth or offer to change side against him. Put in an NPC with a half-assed, railroaded dungeon, make him invincible, PROFIT! Skyrim quests in a nutshell.

 

[CountChocula]

And yes, it's only natural that followers who use god mode would obviously make huge difference in battles. 10 years ago, that would be called "cheating". Now it's a "feature".

Perhaps you have misunderstood me.

In other games such as Fallout New Vegas, you have a problem with followers either making the combat way too easy or getting themselves killed.

In Skyrim, it's actually fun to fight alongside your companions because they make a difference, but they don't make the combat too easy. And they don't get themselves killed.

According to the Prima Guide the only possible way for any follower to die is if you kill them yourself. However, unlike fighting alongside Boone, it does not turn the game into easy mode, since you are still an active part of the battle. It's an ingenious system IMHO.

 

[villain of the story]

I understand. Yeah, it's a matter of game balance. They might have done that aspect better in Skyrim, I can't say I've noticed.

And the Prima Guide is wrong or maybe only talking about particular followers. You shouldn't trust Prima Guides in general. I've read some for a few games. They get a lot of things wrong or missing. And since they are often written with developer cooperation, they will ignore a lot of bugs and give solutions or hints as though something that's broken/bugged works as intended, though that might be because they believe it would be fixed in future.

 

[CountChocula]

I understand. Yeah, it's a matter of game balance. They might have done that aspect better in Skyrim, I can't say I've noticed.

And the Prima Guide is wrong or maybe only talking about particular followers. You shouldn't trust Prima Guides in general. I've read some for a few games. They get a lot things wrong or missing.

It was hard for me to acknowledge that I had killed my own followers (about 4 of them at that point) when I read this, as I was dead certain it was that frost troll who killed Lydia! In hindsight, though, I do believe they were each exposed to friendly fire.

Certainly they might be wrong about some things and it would be interesting to know whether a follower can be killed by, say, falling off a mountain, etc., without any friendly fire being involved.

 

[Roll-A-Dice]

Perhaps you have misunderstood me.

In other games such as Fallout New Vegas, you have a problem with followers either making the combat way too easy or getting themselves killed.

In Skyrim, it's actually fun to fight alongside your companions because they make a difference, but they don't make the combat too easy. And they don't get themselves killed.

According to the Prima Guide the only possible way for any follower to die is if you kill them yourself. However, unlike fighting alongside Boone, it does not turn the game into easy mode, since you are still an active part of the battle. It's an ingenious system IMHO.

Guess what Prima guides are often quite blatantly wrong because they use beta builds.

 

[rune_74]

The reason I do not argue with codexers like you villian, is that you come across as sanctimonius creeps who think they basically know everything. Just because you type things up like you have integrity we should all bow down to doesn't make it fact. If skyrim lacks so many things that even puts up to game of the year running where does that place the rest of the sad lot of rpg's that were released this year? Seriously, name an open world RPG that has done it better?

Why don't you use your awesome analytical skills to pull apart the great rpgs you think are better this year, or would that go against some agenda?

So, in the end, if I wanted to talk discuss games with sanctimonious racist punks I would post on the codex. I thank god it is there(and back) to keep the rest of us sheltered from the BS that comes from there.

 

[Roll-A-Dice]

The reason I do not argue with codexers like you villian, is that you come across as sanctimonius creeps who think they basically know everything. Just because you type things up like you have integrity we should all bow down to doesn't make it fact. If skyrim lacks so many things that even puts up to game of the year running where does that place the rest of the sad lot of rpg's that were released this year? Seriously, name an open world RPG that has done it better?

Why don't you use your awesome analytical skills to pull apart the great rpgs you think are better this year, or would that go against some agenda?

So, in the end, if I wanted to talk discuss games with sanctimonious racist punks I would post on the codex. I thank god it is there(and back) to keep the rest of us sheltered from the BS that comes from there.

This year, open world RPGs haven't really been done, they are done only rarely after all. But as far as open world games go previously, Gothic 2, best balance and risk reward that thrives in the addition of proper balance to an open world game. Not just aimlessly level scaling things to the player, actually setting up goals for the player to beat. It's failings lie with the fact that the combat systems were often obtuse, and the game was zonkers hard towards the beginning. The story also suffered in that it was written by Europeans and then translated to English, so a lot of the humor is lost.

Morrowind, one of the most interesting gameworlds I believe I've ever seen, it's a tragedy the company has fallen so below their previous standards, had issues with scaling, but one of the better immersive worlds out there with brilliantly paced and brilliantly plotted storylines for each of the factions, that made a mostly static world feel like it was alive. Even then it's failings lie with the fact that they didn't know enough about the graphics hardware to properly offset certain tasks to the GPU, and this rendered it a very CPU intensive game. It's unoptimized and looks like ass at times.


Fallout NV, is one of the better more modern sandboxes, with again brilliant quest design, I can't think of a single one that didn't have multiple solutions beyond the more basic fetchquests, and even then they had a speech or barter check thrown in to make you know you were still playing an RPG. They actually spent the time balancing the scaling of the enemies in such a way that the beginning of the game and into the mid game make a perfect curve before leveling out. They also rewarded risk, and clever thinking by letting you simply sneak your way past certain enemies towards the beginning to continue the plot in an easy and efficient manner. It's failings lie again, in staid world design, and a prevalence of invisible walls to pad out the walking sections of the game.

EDITED for corwin