They don't make them like this anymore

[KasperFauerby]

Ok, so the short version is: I'm thinking about playing an old classic CRPG, and I was hoping you guys could help me choose which one

The somewhat longer version: I'm a 32yo gamer, which means, that even though some people on these boards probably still think of me as a kid, I've been around pretty much since the early times in PC gaming. It's not like I'm stuck in the past or anything like that, though - in fact I believe I have a pretty positive approach to most games I play, old or new. So 2008 and 2009 were, for me, fine years for CRPGs with Risen, DAO, Drakensang etc.

I often get somewhat annoyed with "The Net" though, because personally I think there are way too many "complainers" out there (I know, nothing new) I mean, while I was playing and greatly enjoying all those games mentioned above, you could be pretty much sure that a bunch of people would be complaining about them - usually referring to just how much better games were in the old days.
Now, since (as mentioned earlier) I've been around for a while I have actually often played and enjoyed all those old games myself. I just don't see a reason why they should/could detract from the enjoyment of the new games coming out.

I'll give those people one thing though - when thinking back on all those *tons* of games I've played over the years, it's often the ones I played waaay back that really stands out in my memory. I'm pretty convinced that this has more to do with my age and experience with games back then, but I guess it's true that those old CRPGs had *something* that is simply not made anymore.

So, I'm considering taking a detour from all the modern CRPGs and play one of the oldies. It should not be a replay of one of the games I've already played (that would surely tint my view on it), but one of the really great games I've somehow missed. I think it would be interesting to see if those games can actually still deliver

I'm considering "Albion" or one of the "Realms of Arkania" games. Or maybe "Anvil of Dawn" (but I've played a bit of this one years back). I've never really played the Gold Box games either. So any ideas? What old "hardcore" CRPG do you think is so great, that even today it could capture a gamer solely by its gameplay?

I did something similar back around year 2000 (even for a 32yo that doesn't seem like *that* long ago..). I played many of the old Ultimas dor the first time back then, and I remember that Ultima 5 in particular got me completely hooked. I can't remember what else I was playing at the time (a good guess is one of the major releases from that year though) - but, simple graphics and all, Ultima 5 knocked them all aside Then I went on to play through U4, U1 and Akalabeth

 

[JDR13]

What old "hardcore" CRPG do you think is so great, that even today it could capture a gamer solely by its gameplay?

System Shock

Of course I don't know what your definition of "hardcore crpg" is, but that's the game that comes to mind when thinking about being captured solely by gameplay.

Well… story and atmosphere play a large part too.

 

[JemyM]

CRPG's released after Ultima I have no soul.

 

[DArtagnan]

The problem with old games is that the UI/convenience revolution actually did happen.

Gameplay is a tough one - but in my opinion the CRPG genre peaked in terms of complex and rich gameplay sometime in the mid-late nineties. There are exceptions and there will always be certain "steps forward" that can be hard to live without.

Even something as hollow as I consider Mass Effect 2 to be, can have absolutely fantastic visuals and voice acting - and going back to text-based quests can be kinda hard.

Gameplay might have stagnated and gone backwards, but technology has progressed to the point where certain things that simply weren't possible in the old days are possible today.

Seamless true 3D worlds, for instance, just wasn't possible back in the old days.

I can highly recommend the Goldbox series, though, but the visuals are awful and the UI archaic. But it works great for what it is.

 

[Arhu]

@KasperFauerby: Since you mentioned Albion, might I suggest Ambermoon on an Amiga Emulator? The prequel, Amberstar, is available for PC too, although its graphics are even older.

Albion was sort of an unofficial spiritual successor to the other two, a different game similar in style by some of the original team. Since it was made later it has better graphics and an improved interface and is as such probably easier to get into than the other two. I was often reminded of Albion when I watched the movie Avatar because there are lots of parallels (lush visuals, wondrous world, feline aliens, technology in a medieval setting). I didn't find the game as fun as Ambermoon though. In order of personal preference, I'd rate them: Ambermoon > Albion >= Amberstar.


System Shock is a game I'm tempted to play too, what with the new mouselook and all, although I previously said I didn't want to. I do have some appreciation for older graphics etc., but sometimes the control or interface limitations are too big for me.

PS: DArtagnan, I found myself in agreement with your views on lots of things lately, e.g. Mass Effect (2), Bioshock, now the interface thing ... curious.

 

[DArtagnan]

System Shock is a game I'm tempted to play too, what with the new mouselook and all, although I previously said I didn't want to. I do have some appreciation for older graphics etc., but sometimes the control or interface limitations are too big for me.

Just remember that it's not an RPG - but rather an action/adventure with a huge emphasis on exploration. It's probably not like that today, but I consider it the most immersive game of all time.

PS: DArtagnan, I found myself in agreement with your views on lots of things lately, e.g. Mass Effect (2), Bioshock, now the interface thing … curious.

That can't be good

 

[KasperFauerby]

@JemyM: He heh..excellent

To all the rest - thanks for the suggestions so far! System Shock is definitely something to consider (and I actually never played the first one!), but I guess I had my mind more set on a "true" CRPG. I'll definitely look around for some more info about Ambermoon. I've heard the name beforce, of course, but I never connected it to Albion.

I pretty much agree with all you've said so far, and especially the points about UI. Looking at games like, for example, the ROA series that I've considered playing, I'm pretty sure the UI will be a much greater challenge than the gfx.

 

[wolfing]

Wizardry 7 would be a good choice. Or try the Quest for Glory series.

 

[Zaleukos]

First a disclaimer: In this context anything from Baldurs Gate onwards is "modern"

Most of the really old RPGs I've played have either been dungeon crawlers (Eye of the Beholder, Ultima Underworld) or fairly linear hack n slash affairs (the goldbox games). There are still some gems to be found if you can put up with the UIs.

Hacknslash with tactical battles: The various Goldbox titles. Funnily enough the oldest title (pool of radiance) is the most modern in terms of having an open world. In spite of the age these games have a fairly streamlined (keyboard only) interface that I dont find particularly clunky. I think Icewind Dale can be considered the spiritual heir to this tradition.
Hacknslash with character building: Might & Magic III-V. More interesting character building options, more open worlds, but less tactical actual battles compared to the Goldbox titles.
Dungeoncrawlers: Here I've only really played the Eye of the Beholder series, which is pretty solid craftsmanship. Puzzles and dungeon design are the strengths of the series.
The Realms of Arkania trilogy falls somewhere in between, the first title has a large open world, while the second only has a few dungeons and settlements on a huge map, IMHO making overland travel a chore. The tactical combat system gives you some options but is much worse than the goldbox titles. Decent dungeon puzzles. The ROA games have a very clunky interface though.
Darklands sports an elite with swords type of gameplay, large map with plenty of locations but ultimately mostly random generated content. Unique setting (somewhat historical 15th c Germany with alchemy and praying to saints instead of magic) and a combat system that was ahead of it's time (an early realtime with pause system].

Ultima Underworld pretty much have all the features one would expect from a more modern dungeon crawled, well thought out maps, strong puzzles etc. The controls havent aged all that well.
The Darksun games also have most features I would expect in a more recent RPG. IMHO they play very similar to what a turn based Baldurs Gate would have been like.

A lot of people swear by Betrayal at Krondor, but I never got into that game. It does seem to have a lot of depth for it's age though.

Funnily enough most of these party based titles have far better combat than Fallout and Arcanum had much later, which is one reason why I was so perplexed by the dreadful combat of these more modern titles

EDIT: I'm not that nostalgic for the pre-BG days, of the mentioned games I'd say only Ultima Underworld and the Darksun games can compete with 2000s titles in terms of roleplaying depth...

 

[DeepO]

I'm considering "Albion" or one of the "Realms of Arkania" games. Or maybe "Anvil of Dawn" (but I've played a bit of this one years back). I've never really played the Gold Box games either. So any ideas? What old "hardcore" CRPG do you think is so great, that even today it could capture a gamer solely by its gameplay?

As far as top down 2-D RPGs go, Albion is a great one - a lot of exploration, interesting settings, characters, occasional puzzles, solid character development and quite good combat (well, at least if you don´t use potions in it, eh). Unfortunately it also contains use of 3-D in outdoor city areas IIRC and some dungeons. I think that this aspect was rather hard to swallow even at the release time - it´s way too confusing and not really well functional. Personally, I´ve got used to it after a while, but the game would be definitely better without 3-D altogether. I think the game is abandonware by now so maybe give it a try and see how much detracting these 3-D environments will feel to you.
Other than that, Albion is an expansive and rather unique cRPG and I had overall a great time playing it about 7 years ago.

As for Realms of Arkania, it has ridiculously detailed character development system, a very good implementation of strategic turn based combat, well laid-out dungeons and plays in a very open ended environment, well, at least the first two do.
If you want to try just one of the trilogy, I´d probably recommend the second part, Star Trail, which provides the most full blown RoA experience party management-wise and has most interesting dungeons of the three. Managing the overland traveling in Star Trail is quite a chore, but it´s also quite an unique one at that, so I think that today it may be fresh to experience something like that.
After the whole afternoon spent on party creating you may as well be hooked for good.

I´ve played Anvil of Dawn for a while, but it hasn´t really pulled me in so I rather won´t comment on it.

To the previously mentioned Eye of the Beholder series I´d like to add that the second one is by far the best of the trilogy and provides the most varied and creative dungeon crawling experience of the three.

I also support the System Shock rec - with higher resolution and newly available mouselook, two of the main potential obstacles are gone and game´s other aspects like design, story and atmosphere are simply timeless in their quality.

Besides other already mentioned titles, I´d also recommend Wizardry 7. Other than modern audiovisuals, the game has just about everything you could wish for in an oldschool cRPG - complex character development, tactical turn-based combat with a lot of varied challenges, huge open ended gameworld, intricate dungeons, all kinds of puzzles, competing parties of adventurers, interesting setting, easy to get to controls.
Well, thinking about it, I´d recommend Wizardry 8 as well - it may not be really oldschool audiovisually, but it definitely provides a very oldschool experience gameplay-wise. Overall, not as "hardcore" as its predecessor but still very different to what we´re used to nowadays. With Wizardry 8 you´ll get relatively modern UI and visuals with great audio to boot, but at its heart it´s a pure oldie - open ended, quest compass-less, with superb character development, a lot of exciting combat scenarios and memorable atmosphere.

 

[JemyM]

I have played pen and paper RPG's since I was 8. Going computers was a natural step, however, most of the early CRPG's couldn't capture the RPG feel, only RPG mechanics.

Ultima I was the first CRPG I owned. I never finished it because I didn't know what to do, but I grinded up to 9999 in all stats and 255 in all equipment and found myself "done".

I later bought Pool of Radiance but didn't understand it (too young, and I didn't knew English).

One odd one for this thread was Wonder Boy 3: The Dragon's Trap that was one of my first favorite games. I didn't understand why back then, but WB3 actually have a lot of RPG mechanics in it. You update swords, armor and shields, you increase your status by collecting diamonds (which act as leveling). It always keeps going back to a central hub and you gain special abilities which gives you access to new areas etc. This can be like unlocking new animal forms that gives you abilities like Swim or Flight, or items like lavaprotecting armor. I find the game to be one of the best looking games of the 8BIT era and perhaps the only one beyond Last Ninja I enjoy replaying once in awhile.

The Eye of the Beholder series was the first real RPG I finished and I loved the 2nd one in particular. One of the few RPG's beyond that was Realmz and Exile III, both played on Macintosh. However, most of the 90'ies I didn't play CRPG's. Sticking with Amiga for long was perhaps the major reason why I didn't. I had a brief encounter with Diablo with a friend but that was it. Amiga had a couple of RPG's but I never really got myself into any of them. I guess one could mention UFO: The Unknown.

When all boils down to it I guess you can say it was Baldur's Gate that set things off. I even bought a PC to be able to play it. In many ways, Baldur's Gate was the first game that emphasised playing a CHARACTER your way, just in a RPG. A long with Baldur's Gate I engaged in the Fallout series, and I guess from that moment on I have played most RPG's released, even going back playing some that I missed (including System Shock). Some I enjoyed the most was the Might & Magic series, the 6th and 7th in particular.

 

[Gokyabgu]

Might&Magic series, Wizardry series, Wizards&Warriors like party based first person view turn based RPGs.
Fallout 1-2, Arcanum, Pool Of Radiance 2, Temple Of Elemental Evil style isometric turn based RPGs.

I hope one day there will be a Might&Magic 10, Wizardry 9, Wizards&Warriors 2, Arcanum 2, ToEE 2 and Pool Of Radiance 3. Same old school RPGs. But, mine is a vain hope.

 

[azraelck]

Wizardry 6, 7
Might and Magic II-VII
Ultima 4-7
Any of the gold box games, Pool of Radiance, Champions of Krynn, etc...

Those are the games with clean enough visuals and interfaces that they really aren't hard to go back these days and play. Yes, it'll be "clunky" compared to Baldur's Gate or Dragon Age, but then back in those days not everyone even had a mouse!

 

[chamr]

While not an "old classic CRPG" in terms of release date, it is in just about every other way: Eschalon.

 

[EvilManagedCare]

Another vote for the Realms of Arkania series. However, I am a proponent of starting from the first and playing through with the same party through all 3 installments. Yes, it's a lot of gameplay, but Star Trail is much better imo when you have your party from Blade of Destiny. This game to me is what a PnP game should feel like on a PC. Mind you, I never played DSA, but it (the PC games) just had a PnP feel to it.

If you really want to go retro and can handle the graphics and PC beeping, my very favorite CRPG is the Magic Candle. But that's going back to like 1985. Some games really just don't stand up so well when you go too far.

 

[Zaleukos]

I had to start a new party in Star Trail as the import function was broken, giving all party members weird baby faces. I wonder if the GOG version has fixed that problem?

 

[Dasale]

…
What old "hardcore" CRPG do you think is so great, that even today it could capture a gamer solely by its gameplay?
….

Ultima Underworld and Dungeon Master. Both are dungeon games but Ultima Underworld is also a more classical RPG with plenty dialogs.

For UW, don't get stopped by graphics, with some persistence you get used to the very low definition. The possible blocking point are fights controls, if controls are great for exploration, for the fights they are too hard to master.

For Dungeon Master, the graphics are more symbolic but you can enter in the mood. The typical dungeon game and no dialogs, but amazing puzzling, good exploration and nice mood, nice interactivity, and excellent fights. About fights don't get wrong by appearance, they seem too simple but dig them as a real action game and they become great. For fights be imaginative, use items, use the maze, and more.

The block point that could even stop you try it, is that there's no automap. For many levels you can explore them with almost no mapping and not be lost. If you need some map, try alternate exploration phases and map phases. Another possibility is just play the game with maps already in hand that you could get from some sites.

EDIT: To run them both the best way is probably to use DosBox.

 

[KasperFauerby]

Thanks for a lot of good suggestions! I've already played the UW games, the M&M games, Eschalon, Ultima, EoB and many other - but it's interesting to see how so many recommend especially the Goldbox series and the Wizardry games. It seems like the ROA series "divides the waters" a bit more. I'm still tempted by the pure challenge of those games though

For some reason I *really* dislike Wizardry 8. I've tried, but I simply can't get into that game. It just seems so empty, and the combat is simply too slow and too frequent for me. From what I've seen Wiz 7 is somewhat different though, so it might be something.

 

[JDR13]

A lot of people swear by Betrayal at Krondor, but I never got into that game. It does seem to have a lot of depth for it's age though.

+1

I've tried to play it twice now, but just couldn't get into it at all, despite the story. The graphics are so low-res that I couldn't even tell what I was looking at half the time. I would love to see some kind of modern upgrade to that game.

 

[Zaleukos]

It seems like the ROA series "divides the waters" a bit more. I'm still tempted by the pure challenge of those games though

How one views ROA probably depends on how much stomach one has for an interface that is among the worst of the games mentioned, a ruleset with a lot of skills that you probably wont use and one or two obscure ones that you will need ONCE, and a gameplay that is very hardcore with weapons breaking, thethanus, and other lovely stuff that requires a lot of attention. IF you can put up with those issues the games are great.

+1

I've tried to play it twice now, but just couldn't get into it at all, despite the story. The graphics are so low-res that I couldn't even tell what I was looking at half the time. I would love to see some kind of modern upgrade to that game.

Early 3D ages horribly

I sort of figured out how to play it (I only acquired the game in the 2000s after Sierra made it freeware), but got annoyed with how the party members are swapped out between chapters. I can put up with a somewhat clunky interface, but when a game with a mildly annoying UI also decides to waste my character building I call it quits