We dont care that you landed a spacecraft on a comet, you shirt is misogynist!

The feminists and feminist allies (however you identify) have made some amazing points, as well as the people with professionalism and common sense.

But what I want to know is - and completely without BS or pretense -

exactly why did the OP start a thread for this? As in, why did he really do it?

Did he do it to make a joke out of feminism?
 
Joined
Dec 16, 2013
Messages
2,789
Location
1920
Your example doesn't fit because it obviously describes (i) individual harassment, (ii) repeated harassment, and (iii) abusing a position of power. That's a far cry from some anonymous people who are targeted in no way get some vague feeling of being "stereotyped". I said I thought the shirt was tacky, as it makes the guy look a bit desperate and like somewhat of a loser. The joke's on him. On the other hand, the "oh, I'm feeling stereotyped" is just looking silly.

The problem is - the message and images are EVERY-FUCKING-WHERE.

Look:
- Male domination and female subjugation is historically demonstrated - no education, no jobs, no vote. Women 'being allowed' to do these things is relatively recent (i.e. <100 years, mostly <50). This is reality, and undeniable.
- Every major organized religion is a patriarchy with messages that men are the leaders and women are secondary.
- Systemic and systematic discrimination against women is again well documented and demonstrated in pretty much every corner of the world, but there is a special case in the tech world (including gaming).
- It has been demonstrated that "repeat a lie often enough and it becomes truth". The images of women as objects have been used for decades to reinforce a mindset that the value of a female is directly proportional to her physical attributes.
- There is a reason we see so many issues with eating disorders and addictions to cosmetic surgery - it is from ever-present and pervasive messages and images of 'what is required' to be beautiful ... and that beauty is required for self-worth.
- There have been countless studies showing that the largest barrier to performance by women in corporations is NOT talent ... but environments of pervasive sexism.

None of this has to do with 'appreciating beauty' any more than rape has to do with sex. I LOVE beautiful women - though to be honest I have always tended to be more 'holistic' in my view of beauty rather than a 'checklist objectifier' ...

I have a fundamental belief that everyone deserves to be treated equally and given equal opportunities regardless of gender, color, religion or sexual orientation.

I also believe it is possible to study outcomes and infer correlation if not actual causation, and that since women and men are equally intelligent and have equivilant potential success at math and science, that the lower entry owes to societal messages, and lower retention owes largely to infrastructural norms. They are correctable ... but first we have to realize that the western world is a white, Christian patriarchy and address the disadvantaged positions of all others.
 
Joined
Oct 18, 2006
Messages
14,963
What I said is entirely applicable there, and is, if you like, a general defence of political correctness, and a greater sensitivity to the question of offence in certain contexts.
Well, I guess we will have to disagree here. This "don't offend anyone" attitude is growing to ridiculous proportions. It's like a return to the 1950's. Do you want to suggest that all women have to wear burqas now because their naked hair offends Muslims? Or a better question: where do you draw the border?

And if you want to argue that my example doesn't fit, I have to remind you that, in both cases, it's about telling someone what he or she is allowed to wear in order not to offend some nebulous other person.
 
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
804
Location
Austria
I have a fundamental belief that everyone deserves to be treated equally and given equal opportunities regardless of gender, color, religion or sexual orientation.
We are in complete agreement regarding this point, which is why I don't understand what caused this long piece of exposition. Now just tell me what this has to do with the sudden burst of prudishness the article in question promotes?
There have been countless studies showing that the largest barrier to performance by women in corporations is NOT talent … but environments of pervasive sexism.
Well, maybe where you live, but not everywhere. The situation in Germany for instance is quite interesting. Although the societal emancipation of women there is near complete, they are conspicuously absent from leading positions, things like leading the country itself or its military notwithstanding. The wife of one of the professors at a uni I worked at was professor for women's studies, and she was working specifically on the problem of how to get more women into leading positions. Her even to herself somewhat surprising result was that the reason was mostly the women themselves. They valued raising a family higher than a career at university or in the industry. She then held seminars for women at university to bring them to stay with their job.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
804
Location
Austria
Joined
Dec 16, 2013
Messages
2,789
Location
1920
On a serious note. I support the core values of feminism, its what the movement has become that I disagree with (much like labor unions, environmentalists, etc.). I've encouraged my wife to pursue her career since the day I met her. I have two young daughters that I want to have every possible opportunity available to them.

I'm all for everybody being treated equal. I think too many people have thin skin though and make big deals out of irrelevant things (like shirtgate here) and it takes away from addressing the real problems that face women in education and industry.
 
Joined
Jan 10, 2008
Messages
4,355
Location
Austin, TX
Well, I guess we will have to disagree here. This "don't offend anyone" attitude is growing to ridiculous proportions. It's like a return to the 1950's. Do you want to suggest that all women have to wear burqas now because their naked hair offends Muslims? Or a better question: where do you draw the border?

And if you want to argue that my example doesn't fit, I have to remind you that, in both cases, it's about telling someone what he or she is allowed to wear in order not to offend some nebulous other person.

The problem is not that your example doesn't fit, it's that you're engaging in black and white thinking, and presenting a false dilemma. Nowhere have I suggested that people not be “allowed”, or forced, to do anything. I've said things like.

“a greater sensitivity to the question of offence in certain contexts”

“portraying images which could be interpreted as a casually reductive representation of women in that context is unhelpful and unwelcome.”

This is measured language, because of course it is shades of grey, and every situation must be considered rationally. Does it make sense for a person to be forced to observe a religious dress code at all times in public, to avoid offending a Muslim? No, of course not, because that is a huge impingement upon their freedoms, to suit someone else's philosophy. But, if my girlfriend goes for tea and sandwiches at a mosque, maybe she wears a headscarf, out of respect and consideration on that occasion. And if the Muslim guy next to me at work is fasting for Ramadan, do I whip out a bacon sandwich right there, with an attitude of “It's my fucking right to eat bacon sandwiches wherever I please!” Of course it is, but maybe I eat them in the park that day.

This is all that political correctness really is – a convention towards consideration and respect, instead of “I'll do what I fucking like, and you can deal with it.”

In the specific case of the shirt, the thought process might be, “As women are under-represented in the sciences, and at the highest levels of employment, perhaps I won't wear my metal-bikini babe shirt while I'm acting as spokesperson for the scientific achievement of the decade, because that might make some of them uncomfortable, and create the wrong impression about our attitudes. I will wear it at the bar tonight, though, because it's awesome.”

That might not be your choice, then some people might criticise you, and your boss might tell you off because you have not represented the organisation as he would have wished. And, the process of a reasoned “political correctness” over time is what will help to shape those societal ideas of what is acceptable and desirable. But no-one, at any point, is under any personal obligation to abide by it.

It is what has made it much less likely for Round Brown Boy to be openly treated that way any more. And we are all Round Brown Boy!
 
Joined
Nov 8, 2014
Messages
12,085
I don't care much for the supposed "sexism" for which the patriarchy unicorn is yet again responsible for.

To me it looks like someone who is full of himself and hugely unprofessional. The past generations of scientists would have weeped at someone who carried himself like that. This is why I don't trust most scientists anymore, it has gone down the drain quite a great deal.

I do want to point out that under a patriarchal system such a man would have never been allowed to display such immaturity and immodesty, he would have been laughed out of the profession.

Maybe, just maybe the generation of our grandparents knew some important things which we have forgotten.
 
Joined
Nov 16, 2011
Messages
2,006
Location
Trois-Rivières, Québec
Please - never post a photo of the "patriarchy unicorn".
 
Joined
Nov 8, 2014
Messages
12,085
The lack of women in science is a bit deeper than a simple matter of male sexism. It dates back to a time when women were indoctrinating their daughters to be homemakers and the idea of a range of science equipment littered around the house would have filled any self-respecting homemaker with the utmost horror, forcing such things as science equipment into that notoriously male domain - the shed.

The good news is that the times they are a changin' and more and more girls are being inspired by the slowly growing numbers of females taking a deeper interest in the subject. If Alyssa Carson achieves her goal to be the first person on Mars, for example, I have no doubt that women and science will become an avalanche rather than a trickle:

Alyssa Carson has big dreams. At the age of 13 she is determined to be the first person to land on Mars.
But this is more than wishful thinking - Nasa thinks she stands a chance and she is already in training.
Alyssa is studying science and several languages and became the first person to attend all three of Nasa's world space camps. Her call sign at the US space agency is "Blueberry".
The teenager from Baton Rouge, Louisiana, says failure is not an option.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-29516432
 
Joined
Nov 1, 2014
Messages
4,778
In the specific case of the shirt, the thought process might be, “As women are under-represented in the sciences…”
Well, in my scientific field (biosciences), there are more women than men, and even at the doctorate level, they made up 41% in 2010, tendency rising. In physics they are under-represented, but that's more self-selecting at the college level. They still get to the highest tier there though.

Probably a cultural thing. In Iran, women are the majority of graduates in fields like chemistry or engineering, but for whatever reason, they don't like it in the US. It's probably those shirts sporting evening gowns.
 
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
804
Location
Austria
Please - never post a photo of the "patriarchy unicorn".
You made me curious. It's actually a thing…

PU_zps2c235ccb.jpg


The second hit wasn't safe for consumption on this board, I guess.
 
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
804
Location
Austria
Well, in my scientific field (biosciences), there are more women than men, and even at the doctorate level, they made up 41% in 2010, tendency rising. In physics they are under-represented, but that's more self-selecting at the college level. They still get to the highest tier there though.

Probably a cultural thing. In Iran, women are the majority of graduates in fields like chemistry or engineering, but for whatever reason, they don't like it in the US. It's probably those shirts sporting evening gowns.

But pointing to the outliers in a few areas of the statistics does not refute the statement given.

“Women are under-represented in the sciences.”

“Women are under-represented at the highest levels of employment.”

Would you disagree with those two general statements?
 
Joined
Nov 8, 2014
Messages
12,085
It dates back to a time when women were indoctrinating their daughters to be homemakers and the idea of a range of science equipment littered around the house would have filled any self-respecting homemaker with the utmost horror, forcing such things as science equipment into that notoriously male domain - the shed.[/URL]

So, the lack of women in science is due to their mothers driving the household science equipment into the shed?
 
Joined
Nov 8, 2014
Messages
12,085
A superb trolling, Sir.

That goes right alongside your other classic about "bringing the incompetent feminist dictator Anita Sarkeesian to power".
 
Joined
Nov 8, 2014
Messages
12,085
But pointing to the outliers in a few areas of the statistics does not refute the statement given.
It shows that the general statement is garbage. It's a very specific problem of some scientific fields. The general statement masks the actual problem, because it obviously has nothing to do with the job market. It has to do with the choice young women make when they leave highschool. If they decide to start studying physics, their chance at a leading job is about the same as in biochemistry. Which means that the actual question is why women don't want to study physics. Your answer seems to be the lack of fashion sense among physicists. Which is a given, but please?
 
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
804
Location
Austria
A superb trolling, Sir.

That goes right alongside your other classic about "bringing the incompetent feminist dictator Anita Sarkeesian to power".

It is a shame your hatred for me blinds you from furthering your understanding of Gender Studies... if you are going to do this on every topic I post to I think I shall be having my own grounds for a claim of harassment...
 
Joined
Nov 1, 2014
Messages
4,778
Back
Top Bottom