Welfare reform in Michigan

You see Übereil, dte doesn't believe in mental problems. It's all "snivelling" in his book. I really think that there is something in Anglo-Saxon psyche which makes them particularly receptive to Calvin's predestination doctrine.
 
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No, I think a lot of people who can do better are milking the system.

You said that. Here's another attempt to try and explain my point: I think you're overestimating their ability. I think most of these pepole are where they are for entirely different reasons than being stuck in a "sweet, I get free money so I don't have to do anything!" mindset.

dte would need to quit his snivelling and get off his dead ass, because dte has responsibilities to his family and to himself that are far more important than laying around feeling sorry for himself.

You can't. You're so depressed you can't even get out of bed, remember? Just sitting up takes a huge effort, so how are you supposed to manage your work? Or your children?

Übereil
 
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You said that. Here's another attempt to try and explain my point: I think you're overestimating their ability. I think most of these pepole are where they are for entirely different reasons than being stuck in a "sweet, I get free money so I don't have to do anything!" mindset.

You need to understand that "a lot" and "most" are not the same thing. I'm not claiming that the majority are milking the system.
 
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In the US perhaps.

I did argue frequently for this solution in the past. However, the problems were too many so I dropped it.

As far I concern there are also important psychological advantages of a such system as it gets the individual out of isolation, something that is vital for several reasons.

The problem many rational people have is that they simply assume that the information available to them is available to everyone (reversed Dunning Kruger effect). Can more be aware about what knowledge actually do to the human brain we would have less issues as far as I concern. The "rational-choice theory" that became very popular in some areas is nothing more than corrosive.

Staying home might be a "choice", the problem with all "choices" is that you always do what you based on all information you got pick the choice that is best for you. No one picks a worse option in their own head. Reality is quite deterministic that way. The best way to address this is to expose the individual to more choices and the individual will automatically pick a better choice if it appears.

Naturally sitting at home will not expose the individual to choices, rather the opposite.

That said, an individual who spend too much time doing the kind of work you suggest will not get exposed to choices either, especially if all they do is to work alone or with other unemployed people.

To get around this you need to move the individual around to many different kinds of jobs and you might even increase the chances by adding education to the mix. What this does is to increase the individuals awareness, or "their cognitive landscape", which increase the amount of visual choices to the person.

I agree. You've obviously thought it through quite a bit. I also would not try to push for this kind of legislation... At least not without a lot of propaganda so that the people realize they want it ( :) ). Under normal circumstances (in U.S.) if a Lefty tried to do it, the Right would cry for days about big government stealing jobs from private sector. If a Righty tried it, the Left would cry for days about pseudo-slavery and class warfare. It's an untenable situation, to say the least.
 
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You need to understand that "a lot" and "most" are not the same thing. I'm not claiming that the majority are milking the system.

Then why agree with the point that if you haven't gotten a job for four years and isn't disabled then you're probably not trying that hard to find a job (IE you're milking the system)? If you really think that most of these pepole really are doing their best to find a job, that agreement makes no real sense.

Übereil
 
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Then why agree with the point that if you haven't gotten a job for four years and isn't disabled then you're probably not trying that hard to find a job (IE you're milking the system)? If you really think that most of these pepole really are doing their best to find a job, that agreement makes no real sense.

I was talking about welfare in general, not just the people who have been collecting for that long. I could be wrong, but I don't think most of them have been unemployed for four years. Those are the extreme cases, not the majority.
 
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Why haven't they? And what have been done to change that?

And what effect will this really have on these pepole? We're talking pepole who's been unemployed for five+ years, this isn't exactly the most employable pepole in the states. How easy a time will they have getting a job in the middle of a recession, even if they manage to pull their shit together? And how many of them really have it in them to pull their shit together on their own?

Übereil

No one WANTS to be on welfare. Anyone who thinks otherwise should give it a try and see what it's like.

Here's a state with one of the highest unemployment rates, and with one of the highest loss of jobs, trying to balance their budget on the backs of people who have the least.

What a bunch of bastards.
 
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I was talking about welfare in general, not just the people who have been collecting for that long. I could be wrong, but I don't think most of them have been unemployed for four years. Those are the extreme cases, not the majority.

Should remember that it is entirely possible to work AND be on welfare.
 
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No one WANTS to be on welfare. Anyone who thinks otherwise should give it a try and see what it's like.
I'd like to see you back that claim up with even a shred of evidence. You can't. One case getting publicity in Michigan is for somebody that's been on welfare for over 15 years. Explain to me how your hypothetical innocent lamb might strive for 15 years to escape and somehow not make a lick of progress.
 
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Explain to me how your hypothetical innocent lamb might strive for 15 years to escape and somehow not make a lick of progress.
And this one case out of 511,364 unemployed (July 2011) in Michigan is supposed to be a proof of what?
 
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It's more proof than was offered by Jhari, wouldn't you agree?
 
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Taking a cue from what you have wrote dte I would argue that since Benjamin Atkins (just for example) was a serial killer everybody in the state of Michigan is a serial killer.
 
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One case getting publicity in Michigan is for somebody that's been on welfare for over 15 years. Explain to me how your hypothetical innocent lamb might strive for 15 years to escape and somehow not make a lick of progress.

Severe self-esteem issues combined with not getting the help s/he needs. Add that s/he hasn't worked for 15 years (if ever). There you have a combination of someone with poor credentials who can't sell him/herself, since s/he doesn't believe s/he's got something to sell in the first place.

Besides, the longer you stay unemployed, the more your faith in getting one will deteriorate. The less faith you have in success, the less you'll try. The longer you stay unemployed more you build a habit of being unemployed (and the harder it is to break the habit). Therefore pepole tend to get further from, not closer to, employment the longer they stay unemployed.

Übereil
 
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McDonalds doesn't exactly care about "credentials", so that argument is pretty much worthless. Self-esteem issues sounds really pretty and very enlightened, but like I said earlier at some point you've got to get over yourself and show some responsibility for yourself. And really, if you're so screwed up in the head that you are basically non-functional over a 15 year period, you need to head for the happy home and get some help (which means you aren't needing cash payments from welfare). All this psychobabble crap about building habits is the same excuses used to justify ongoing failure in addicts, so it comes as no surprise to me that you'd find yet another group that you're willing to relieve of the slightest hint of personal responsibility.
 
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McDonalds doesn't exactly care about "credentials", so that argument is pretty much worthless.

Of all the 100 applying for each job opening at McDonald's, do you really think they'll pick the guy who hasn't worked for 15 years? The bar might not be that high for a McDonald's job, but it's high enough to exclude some pepole.

Self-esteem issues sounds really pretty and very enlightened, but like I said earlier at some point you've got to get over yourself and show some responsibility for yourself.

Why would you do that if you don't see the point in doing so? What if they don't even think in those patterns? Why would you try to improve your thinking if you think improving your thinking is impossible?

You expect these pepole to know what you know and think the way you think. They don't. If they did, why would they have stayed unemployed all this time?

And really, if you're so screwed up in the head that you are basically non-functional over a 15 year period, you need to head for the happy home and get some help (which means you aren't needing cash payments from welfare).

Happy homes is stretching it (it would be like shooting mosquitos with shotguns), but some kind of psychiatric help would be good for them. A pity society has down-prioritized psychiatric help.

And as a side note these pepole tend to think their problems are so small they should be able to deal with it themself. Come to think of it, most pepole do.

All this psychobabble crap about building habits is the same excuses used to justify ongoing failure in addicts, so it comes as no surprise to me that you'd find yet another group that you're willing to relieve of the slightest hint of personal responsibility.

Justifying? I'm merely explaining. I like explaining things, because if you understand why something happens you're going to have an easier time adressing it correctly/effectivly. And if you understand the problem at hand you'll also understand why "personal repsonsibility" isn't going to make much of a difference. I believe some kind of group therapy would be a much more efficient way of getting these pepole back on track.

I also don't care if their situation is their fault or not, all I'm interested in is how to best get them back into the work force. Or, rather, how to give them a tolerable life situation for a sustainable price, but that to me is pretty much the same thing. Most pepole have to work if we are to achieve a tolerable existance for all (or at least as many as possible) of us.

Übereil
 
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Of all the 100 applying for each job opening at McDonald's, do you really think they'll pick the guy who hasn't worked for 15 years? The bar might not be that high for a McDonald's job, but it's high enough to exclude some pepole.

Fyi, the job situation isn't *that* bad here. There isn't 100 people for every job opening at McDonalds. I see "now hiring" signs at a lot of places, and there are jobs being advertised all over the place. The only problem is that they're low-paying jobs, and probably don't pay much more than welfare.
 
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McDonalds doesn't exactly care about "credentials", so that argument is pretty much worthless. Self-esteem issues sounds really pretty and very enlightened, but like I said earlier at some point you've got to get over yourself and show some responsibility for yourself. And really, if you're so screwed up in the head that you are basically non-functional over a 15 year period, you need to head for the happy home and get some help (which means you aren't needing cash payments from welfare). All this psychobabble crap about building habits is the same excuses used to justify ongoing failure in addicts, so it comes as no surprise to me that you'd find yet another group that you're willing to relieve of the slightest hint of personal responsibility.

To be fair, as you said, the welfare restructuring being proposed in Michigan is only a small part of the total welfare package, and so it's not as if hundreds of thousands of people are simply being tossed out into the harsh Michigan winter, and we need to keep that in mind. In terms of the larger welfare discussion, I'd be willing to wager that you probably haven't worked with a lot of schizoaffectives, bipolars, or borderline personalities. Discounting decades of sociological and psychological research as "psychobabble" leads to legislation based on prejudice instead of science, which, in turn, leads to situations like this. Are you going to tell a veteran that their diagnosis of PTSD, based on their survivor's guilt, hypervigilance, paranoia, nightmares, and depression is simply "psychobabble" and that they need to "get over themselves?" If you've never stood a post at a vehicle or personnel checkpoint, then you probably would have a hard time understanding why someone who has would have a hard time holding a job that requires them to stand in an exposed position, in front of hundreds of strangers - like working the counter at McDonald's. Even if we limit the discussion to able-bodied adults without any mental disorder, when we do the math, does a job at McDonald's, as fulfilling as that might be from a sense of self-responsibility and reliability, provide comparable wages and benefits compared to the welfare system? What about day care and vehicle ownership and maintenance? You'd do anything for your family, and so would I, and we're both fortunate enough to have acquired education and skills that make us competitive in career paths that offer wages and benefits that far outstrip the welfare system, so it would be easy for us to say, "Man, I gotta get off my lazy ass and get a job. Get off welfare." But without those skills, with WalMart, McDonald's, and manual labor as our only options, I'm gonna go with what's going to get me the most for my family, and if that happens to be welfare, then my sense of responsibility, and middle / upper-middle class indignation can get bent.
 
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As with most things in life, a few leeches and criminals can ruin a good thing for everyone. This approach in Michigan seemed like a rather effective way to carve away a lot of leeches without screwing over the folks that really need the safety net until they get their feet set again.

Capn, as to PTSD, wouldn't you agree that if you're still having so much trouble coping after 15 years that you can't manage basic functions like holding a job, perhaps it's time to get more intensive treatment? At that point, I'd think that maybe welfare isn't the right approach.

Finally, I probably needed a paragraph break in that post. The psychobabble comment was directed at the idea of building a habit of being unemployed. That's nothing more than enabling, which is why I roll out the scornful terminology. I accept that there are folks out there that are legitimately sick (although I'd once again question whether welfare cash payments is the appropriate avenue to help them), but I've never been a fan of "manufactured medical justifications" that fabricate medical standing out of thin air to avoid personal responsibility and reel in a juicy government study grant.
 
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Fyi, the job situation isn't *that* bad here. There isn't 100 people for every job opening at McDonalds. I see "now hiring" signs at a lot of places, and there are jobs being advertised all over the place.
That doesn't diminish strength of Übereil's argument. Even if there were only 2 people for every opening, long term unemployed is still most likely to be the one who is rejected.
 
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