DA:I DA:I Cracked!!!

Fluent said:

Arguing back and forth isn't going to get anywhere with you guys, that much is obvious. So, I'll let you all have the last word and we can go our separate ways

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Please, spare us the 'holier than thou' routine.

Ripper said:

Yeah, I don't think there's really that much of an argument here - we pretty much all agree (including Mr. Fry) that piracy is bad, and a problem, to some degree.

My point is just that it's not correctly described as theft, because no one is being deprived of an object that they already possess. I think the media industry's "you wouldn't steal a car" campaign is just absurd and overblown.

Piracy is essentially a violation of a contract, in which someone is not receiving their agreed due. That is not a good thing, and obviously bad news if everyone were to do it.

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I'm not actually sure it's a bad thing, though. It's just the way it is now.

It's like alcohol prohibition to me. People still obtained alcohol no matter what the government tried to do to stop it. Downloads are the same way. Downloaders are getting what they want and that's not going to change. So, that's why I say the obvious solution is to accept it already and stop with the draconian DRM and all this other crap. It's not helping, it's only frustrating paying customers.

I'm convinced that the future is much different than what we see now in the gaming industry (and other industries with downloadable content). I propose a paid subscription service that gives you access to as many games as you like. Maybe a $100 a year or whatever policy that would give you downloads of as many games as you like.

GameFly is actually on the right path. You pay a monthly subscription and can rent as many games as you like. That is the future there.

And here's another thought. There's such a saturation of games right now since everybody and their brothers and sisters are making games, that eventually you're going to see the prices drop even further down as different developers try to compete in the saturated marketplace. The saturated market + downloading games for free is going to lead to a new era of the gaming industry.

At least we'll all get to see where it goes from here. It can only get better from here, right?

P.S. I know I said I was done but I'm bored and couldn't help myself...

Fluent said:

I'm not actually sure it's a bad thing, though. It's just the way it is now.

It's like alcohol prohibition to me. People still obtained alcohol no matter what the government tried to do to stop it. [

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I do think that it is a somewhat bad thing, mainly in the sense that it is ignoring the terms on which the creators offer it. I don't believe that it is as destructive as often claimed, and a bit of research into the state of the PC gaming industry will not support those claims.

I don't quite go along with the prohibition analogy, because in that scenario it was a moralising state attempting to stop people enagaging in a particular trade - even though it was illicit to buy and sell the booze, people got paid. I'm sure that a more open, subscription-type service is the way forward, but until that replaces the current model of remuneration, piracy is still a problem to some degree.

Fluent said:

Oh good lord.

Right, it's just that simple. No need for discussion at all!

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Actually, yeah, it is. The simple fact is that the game is owned by other people. You can't have it for free. END OF STORY. It doesn't matter if it's "tangible." It doesn't matter if you can't afford it. It doesn't matter if they've already started work on some DLC. It doesn't matter if some other platform got it first. It doesn't matter if some other country got it first. It doesn't matter if the game has DRM on it or not. It doesn't matter if they took some feature away during development. It doesn't matter if there's a linux version. And so on and so forth.

Here's DA:I. It costs X. There's no demo and there's no "try before you buy" offer but there are a lot of reviews. If it's worth X to you then buy it. If not, go play something else. If you can't tell if it's worth it to you then decide for yourself if you want to take the chance.

P.S. Just a bunch of 1's and 0's? So that means stealing a book from a store is bad but, if you steal a digital copy, that's no big thing?? I hope the authors are writing these books on paper and sending them to the publisher instead of emailing them because then all their work would be 1's and 0's and the publisher could just take it from them - especially if their business is in trouble. *facepalm*

I'm not ignoring all the good points raised by the "Lawful" mindsets, I'm just trying to play the "True Neutral" here, so this post is @Fluent:

The problem with any discussion such as this is the problem of Law. Once something is a Law, no matter how discussable, there will always be people who can sit back and ignore the discussion and simply claim "Law - end of" in a very circular and boring fashion. Like pot discussions 10 years ago, no matter what you said, 5 minutes later someone just posts "it's against the Law… duh". As soon as pot is legal these people suddenly vanish, because they're just playing life "Lawful" and don't actually care about the topic, they only care about the legality.

So every time someone makes a Law they get a free 50% increase in forum support, just from the army of "Lawfuls".

So you've kind-of framed your discussion and approached the debate from the wrong position by stating that you are and are a proponent of performing an illegal act, rather than broaching the topic from a "what are the alternatives" perspective.

People who play games need people who make games and people who make games need purchasers, otherwise we'd all just be playing flash games made by individuals rather than epic experiences made by teams of experts (or teams of confused accountants in some cases ). The current system is what many believe to be the best system possible, to have the Law protect the bigger, more engaging projects.

You and I might disagree that the current system works as intended (as games seem to be getting less like games and more like a completely different kind of art form by this process), but it's not productive to encourage illegality to solve the problem, it's better just to ignore the companies that rely on the Law to survive and actively promote whichever system you prefer by only playing games which adhere to a system you agree with, even if, at this point in time, the other systems can't properly compete with the incompetent, bloated, conceited, etc, current market leaders.

joxer said:

If you want to dislike something on Fluent join my side. I can't persuade myself to like the fact he never finished The Last Remnant - and I bought that bloody game because of him!

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joxer, I played The Last Remnant for 40 hours. I think that's enough time to tell if the game is good or not and give a recommendation. I also have incredible ADHD at times and guess what? - I've completely dropped gaming for the past few months. Haven't touched a single one. It's just what I do. The RPG bug will bite me again soon, I'm sure, and I'll go back and finish TLR.

I still stand by my remarks that that game is a masterpiece. I'm sorry you didn't care for it, but maybe you should give it a second go and forget the word "masterpiece". Maybe then you can enjoy it for what it is - an engaging, complex, tactical RPG.

A complex RPG?
Yea, where your lead character has a certain power available only as if the game was roguelike - if you put black on roulette and the ball drops on black.
And I hate gambling.

I played the game for a few hours, didn't see anything extraordinary except an early plot hole, dropped it temporarily dunno why, can't remember now. Probably because the whole thing how level up works and why the game gave my spellcasters melee skill just because I didn't use spells is impossible to comprehend by only logic thus I needed a manual or something.

One day I will return to that game and will as usual finish it. It's still installed on my machine. Rare games got me so annoyed I've uninstalled before finishing (NWN is a rare example) and if it matters TLR is not such game. But it doesn't mean it's a masterpiece.
But I would never dare to call something a masterpiece without actually finishing it. Mass Effect 3 is a lesson for that.

Well, I'm not one who thinks you have to finish all the games to see how good they are. Maybe masterpiece was too strong a word, but I really think TLR is an awesome, awesome game. I don't care if the ending is worse than ME3, it's still a great experience for the hours you put into it.

I, too, will finish it eventually. You have to let go of your preconceptions about what makes an RPG, because TLR will twist it around. There is a huge level of strategy in how you build your forces, who you recruit, how you develop them, the gear you give them, how you operate in battle, etc. Just changing who the leader is can give you special bonuses. And no, it's not all spelled out perfectly for you, even with the manual, but I'm not one who has to know every specific detail and exactly how it functions to have fun. I just use my imagination a bit

No game can have the ending worse than red-blue-green ME3.
Maybe it wouldn't be so terribly wrong and much of a plothole if they didn't just have to make a disastrous milking Arrival DLC.
Compared to that catastrophe, TLR at least doesn't have crap DLC, I'll give you that.

TLR also opens up a bit once you can start forming your own unions and recruiting new fighters. You can start to craft your own strategies, such as - do I want a ranged unit who specializes in magic arts (sorry, I've already forgotten the actual terms! ), or, do I want to have 2 ranged groups and a melee group? Do you want to build 3 large unions with a lot of HP that can absorb more damage, or 4 smaller unions that can give you more mobility on the battlefield at the cost of HP? You get a lot of options like this as the game opens up and it really starts to get complex and very interesting.

Recruiting new NPCs that come with their own traits is great, too. How you develop the special NPCs is another area that you can really experiment in and put your own personal touch on and employ new strategies.

Oh, it's also very challenging at times. Killing optional bosses is great fun and will always present some challenges, and I even got stuck at a main story boss that was simply unstoppable. Someone mentioned that I didn't explore the optional side areas to power up enough to deal with him, so that's where I will head next when I get back to playing it.

Sorry, but the 40 hours I put in made this game seem like a Square Enix masterpiece to me. You might disagree, but at least play for 20-40 hours before coming to a strong conclusion. It only gets better as it goes.

JDR13 said:

Please, spare us the 'holier than thou' routine.

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There was actually nothing 'holier than thou' about that. I mean what I say. I usually don't engage in discussions online when it's clear that others minds won't be changed (which is more often than not), so that's all I meant by that.

Stop trolling me! JK, heh

Errr... Who exactly is bigger catholic than pope here?

joxer said:

Errr… Who exactly is bigger catholic than pope here?

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There's a couple in the controversy forum.

joxer said:

This is still alive?

- Thievery is thievery and as such is wrong thing to do.

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Sure, but speeding isn't drunk driving. It's as though someone were to accuse a man who punched them of theft, was corrected in being told this is not theft, then went on raving that people who say that support thieves.

Piracy for personal use is not theft, it's a form violation of copyright which is legally and practically distinct. This is not a distinction without a difference as it lacks the denial of use component that accompanies theft - and therefore a significant element (the most concrete one) of harm to a victim of theft is absent. It's also a meaningful distinction because one is usually a civil tort while the other is a crime (though some legal systems do classify simple piracy as a crime as well, they correctly classify it as an offense distinct from theft).

Yes, it's wrong. Lighting up a cigarette in a private establishment despite the owner's protestation would be wrong too, but you don't call it "arson" just because it sounds worse. It would make you an asshole, possibly guilty of something specific depending on jurisdiction, but certainly not an arsonist.

Fluent said:

I usually don't engage in discussions online when it's clear that others minds won't be changed

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Or when yours won't be changed.

jhwisner said:

Sure, but speeding isn't drunk driving. It's as though someone were to accuse a man who punched them of theft, was corrected in being told this is not theft, then went on raving that people who say that support thieves.

Piracy for personal use is not theft, it's a form violation of copyright which is legally and practically distinct. This is not a distinction without a difference as it lacks the denial of use component that accompanies theft - and therefore a significant element (the most concrete one) of harm to a victim of theft is absent. It's also a meaningful distinction because one is usually a civil tort while the other is a crime (though some legal systems do classify simple piracy as a crime as well, they correctly classify it as an offense distinct from theft).

Yes, it's wrong. Lighting up a cigarette in a private establishment despite the owner's protestation would be wrong too, but you don't call it "arson" just because it sounds worse. It would make you an asshole, possibly guilty of something specific depending on jurisdiction, but certainly not an arsonist.

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Even though your correct that it's more of a violation of copyright protection it is considered theft of intellectual property.

That's why the FBI calls it intellectual property theft and it can carry criminal charges to the tune of up to 5 years in jail and a $250,000 fine.

Sounds like a little more than speeding or smoking where you shouldn't.

Much like speeding and smoking where you shouldn't though, it's almost impossible to enforce.

Therefore we will have to endure DRM, always on connections, activations, etc because people can't simply do what the were probably taught when they were 3...

Don't take things that don't belong to you.

This thread is now for important things, like talking about how great a game TLR is.

Zloth can tell you more

Well now...

With the holidays I have been very busy, plus I think after a year I like Skyrim.

This thread is still going on I see. Well for those that think or want to argue the point of selling or copy right or whatever for that sake. Go right ahead.

I would have to say you have not a care in the world for anything you could might create. For that reason I am sure nothing anyone could say, will or could change your mind.

Myself, I just don't have it in my any more to put that much effort into creating anything people may or may not want. Though if I did I am sure the hell would want them to have it for free unless I choice to give it away.

Enough said .... as the only reason I started this thread was to take about how easy it has become to crack something. Not that it was that hard years ago. Also if there was any reason for big companies to even waste money on it?

CelticFrost said:

I think after a year I like Skyrim.

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Try it with mods, you will be blown away!

sakichop said:

Even though your correct that it's more of a violation of copyright protection it is considered theft of intellectual property.

That's why the FBI calls it intellectual property theft and it can carry criminal charges to the tune of up to 5 years in jail and a $250,000 fine.

Sounds like a little more than speeding or smoking where you shouldn't.

Much like speeding and smoking where you shouldn't though, it's almost impossible to enforce.

Therefore we will have to endure DRM, always on connections, activations, etc because people can't simply do what the were probably taught when they were 3…

Don't take things that don't belong to you.

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Probably good to note that the FBI doesn't write laws and they can call things whatever they want in a PR campaign, but this is not make it accurate.

Again there is a distinction between criminal and civil copyright violation. In the US this distinction is mostly with regard to whether one does it for profit. While criminal copyright violation does not exclusively have to be done for profit, it is far more narrowly defined. For example, the penalties you cited are for the re-transmission/distribution of 10 or more copies of one or more works with a retail value exceeding $2,500 AND is done for commercial advantage (they are a competitor) OR financial gain. This would be the selling of bootlegs rather than personal use.

http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title9/crm01847.htm

The conflation of all acts of copyright violation under the term "intellectual property theft" may be a useful one as it emphasizes that it is not right to do, but it is still an inaccurate one. I have seen it justified though under the assumption that the general public is too stupid to understand that calling it something more accurate than theft is not the same as absolving them.