Avadon - Released on iPad

As of right now Avadon is #3 Paid iPad RPG game, ahead of Final Fantasy III, and #88 overall on the *whole* app store.

All of the anti-Apple, regressionists can just keep on with your fun hating … but I am thrilled for Vogel for bringing such and excellent game to a wider platform.

Any idea what that means in terms of units sold? Hopefully, this will show him that a lower price point can indeed generate larger returns, and maybe at least for his older games, he'll look at dropping the price.
 
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I'm always happy being reminded by txa that I have issues with Apple products. I tend to forget that, owning an iPad (the first one) myself and using it for a lot of stuff and working happily with Mac's at work for quite some time.

The story grows old txa. This happens to be a forum where people are allowed to say something negative about Apple, like they are allowed to say something negative about PCs, Windows, games etc. etc. Just like they are allowed to say something positive about Apple as well.
That you have a very short fuse when it comes to Apple products I see as your problem and not something that I should protect you from, which is similar as what I have mentioned to you before in other threads.

That said I can see that people could be upset about the pricing, but I have to agree that a $9.99 price on an iPad is already expensive. I don't see how Vogel could ask for more on an iPad and still be able to sell it.
 
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Impulse buys = the new gold.

With the current awareness of Avadon - Vogel would be shocked if he sold the PC version at 10$.
 
D'artagnan (and others), I think some of you have a strange notion of "worth" of a marketable product. Maybe Vogel is partly to blame with his blog post. But I think it should be very clear: Of course the market determines what price you can ask! In the posts I link I think he simply makes the point that certain games usually sold at a very low price point are also very simple, and that for that reason as well as the small market segment he targets he has to ask more to make it viable, and people shouldn't expect him to be able to sell at the same price, just because he is "Indie".
Now the Appstore follows different rules than the PC gaming market, I hope we can agree on that? Now look at it from a different angle for a moment: An AAA PC game will be about $40-$50 right? He sells his games for 25-30, I think? On the Appstore an AAA game (yes, there is such a segment, with the usual trappings: strong graphics, well known developers, mediocre gameplay :p ) is usually 5.50 to 7.50 (CHF, so a little less in $). Highest prices for games is around $10. so relative to the market he actually asks MORE on that platform. I am sorry, but you just can't divorce "worth" from the market you sell on, as long as you are equating it to the price of the game - it simply doesn't make sense in a free economy.
Also, D'Artagnan, of course a price point is calculated to maximize profit. You make it sound like vogel is commiting some kind of crime by doing that. I don't see that in the slightes. There is nothing wrong or greedy about maximizing the profit from a given product, especially not when you are very immediately living of the revenue. It is simply economics.
Of course you can judge the merit (or "worth") of his games based on your own criteria, and then decide if you find the content interesting and the price OK. But even the most artistically driven game developer would be very well advised to maximize his profit from the sales he can get, if he wants to make more games.
 
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That said I can see that people could be upset about the pricing, but I have to agree that a $9.99 price on an iPad is already expensive. I don't see how Vogel could ask for more on an iPad and still be able to sell it.

No, and I think most of us agree on that point.

Personally, I think it all makes perfect sense. The only thing I'd suggest is that Vogel be frank about it. It'd go down a lot easier if he just declared himself as he is - a business man, and not a struggling "indie developer" working on expensive but very deep CRPGs for the niche market. The latter is no longer the case, very obviously.

At least have the sense of appreciation for your loyal PC fans to throw them a bone.
 
No, and I think most of us agree on that point.

Personally, I think it all makes perfect sense. The only thing I'd suggest is that Vogel be frank about it. It'd go down a lot easier if he just declared himself as he is - a business man, and not a struggling "indie developer" working on expensive but very deep CRPGs for the niche market. The latter is no longer the case, very obviously.

What makes you think he can't be both? As far as I can judge he VERY MUCH is both.
 
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D'artagnan (and others), I think some of you have a strange notion of "worth" of a marketable product. Maybe Vogel is partly to blame with his blog post. But I think it should be very clear: Of course the market determines what price you can ask! In the posts I link I think he simply makes the point that certain games usually sold at a very low price point are also very simple, and that for that reason as well as the small market segment he targets he has to ask more to make it viable, and people shouldn't expect him to be able to sell at the same price, just because he is "Indie".
Now the Appstore follows different rules than the PC gaming market, I hope we can agree on that? Now look at it from a different angle for a moment: An AAA PC game will be about $40-$50 right? He sells his games for 25-30, I think? On the Appstore an AAA game (yes, there is such a segment, with the usual trappings: strong graphics, well known developers, mediocre gameplay :p ) is usually 5.50 to 7.50 (CHF, so a little less in $). Highest prices for games is around $10. so relative to the market he actually asks MORE on that platform. I am sorry, but you just can't divorce "worth" from the market you sell on, as long as you are equating it to the price of the game - it simply doesn't make sense in a free economy.
Also, D'Artagnan, of course a price point is calculated to maximize profit. You make it sound like vogel is commiting some kind of crime by doing that. I don't see that in the slightes. There is nothing wrong or greedy about maximizing the profit from a given product, especially not when you are very immediately living of the revenue. It is simply economics.
Of course you can judge the merit (or "worth") of his games based on your own criteria, and then decide if you find the content interesting and the price OK. But even the most artistically driven game developer would be very well advised to maximize his profit from the sales he can get, if he wants to make more games.

I'm not saying he's committing a crime. I'm saying he's hiding behind bullshit rhetoric - instead of simply coming out and saying he's had a change of heart. He wants to widen his audience and head in a less "niche" direction. He no longer believes in setting prices according to value - but according to what will make him the most profit.

I have zero issue with him going in that direction, I simply don't appreciate it when people claim to be one thing - but turn out to be something different.

I had the very same reaction to HIS reaction when Avadon was criticised by fans.
 
The thing i find the most ridiculous about this is not the pricing itself - when he decided to enter this particular market, he had to fall into line - but the fact, that he couldn't admit it and instead came up with elaborate crap about cheaper version being inferior (60% less valuable). Why did he feel the need to come up with this 'reasoning'? Is he lying to his fans or to himself?

Also - just for interest, what's the actual percentage he gets for copy sold on iPad vs Mac?
 
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What makes you think he can't be both? As far as I can judge he VERY MUCH is both.

He can be both, but from where I'm sitting - he's been claiming to be one of them. In the past that is, as he's changing his tune all the time.

Naturally, he's not going to be upfront about it - and he's going to make it all sound as if everything is totally in keeping with the past, and what he's been saying all along.

Also, the pricing difference can be argued to be 100% on the level, and there's no way anyone can prove otherwise.

That's fine.

I just don't think he is what he's been claiming to be.

Is it a "great betrayal"? No of course it isn't.

He's just a guy who wants to up his income a bit, and he's making games that people want to play. That's completely alright with me.

We're simply talking about this specific case of the huge pricing disparity - and however minor it may be in the grand scheme of things, I think it's tasteless not to recognise his fans and the fact that they just paid 25$ because they believe the game has that value - and likely more.
 
Vogel is one of the few indies who have continuously blogged about the business side of being an indie developer. Partly because until not-so recently he was the only one who was in business for any length of time. Also I do not think he has changed his tune at all. I know I'm repeating myself, but: he asks a premium price on the PC, now he asks a premium ( a higher one, relatively speaking) on the AppStore. Whats the change of tune? what should he confess too, exactly?
 
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The thing i find the most ridiculous about this is not the pricing itself - when he decided to enter this particular market, he had to fall into line - but the fact, that he couldn't admit it and instead came up with elaborate crap about cheaper version being inferior (60% less valuable). Why did he feel the need to come up with this 'reasoning'? Is he lying to his fans or to himself?
I agree that those reasons are not even necessary, but it does point out a number of possible reasons to stick to the PC/Mac version. But please note that he also said:

"Ever with the lower price, it is still one of the most expensive games for the iPad by a fair margin. We are charging pretty much the highest price for the game we reasonably can, in part to keep from annoying other users."

How much clearer do you need it spelled out?
 
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he asks a premium price on the PC, now he asks a premium ( a higher one, relatively speaking) on the AppStore.

Money are not relative. 10 bucks are 10 bucks. You can buy much less beer for them, than you can buy for 25.
Pretending your product has exactly the chosen value and then selling it for less than 40% is not very honest.
 
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Money are not relative. 10 bucks are 10 bucks. You can buy much less beer for them, than you can buy for 25.
Pretending your product has exactly the chosen value and then selling it for less than 40% is not very honest.

No, the value of money is very relative. $50 buys you 10 beer, but it may be a months wage for some guy in Bangladesh, or whatever. $50 buys you one PC game on Amazon, it buys you 10 games on the AppStore. "Exactly the chose value" referred to the market under discussion at the time that value was discussed, the PC/MAC market.
 
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Vogel is one of the few indies who have continuously blogged about the business side of being an indie developer. Partly because until not-so recently he was the only one who was in business for any length of time. Also I do not think he has changed his tune at all. I know I'm repeating myself, but: he asks a premium price on the PC, now he asks a premium ( a higher one, relatively speaking) on the AppStore. Whats the change of tune? what should he confess too, exactly?

I can't prove anything to you.

You think 10$ = 25$. Why? Because of "market realities".

I don't think so.

In my world, you can't pretend reality changes because Apple says it does - or the market says it does. You have to consider what's "fair" and not just what makes the best business sense.

In this case, it wouldn't make sense to charge more than 10$ - but it WOULD make sense to compensate those who paid so much more for it. Especially since it's no longer about value - as Vogel clearly demonstrates. So his point about depth/longevity being such a big part of the price is a joke now.
 
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This is still a topic?!?! So.... I have an iPad (typing this with it) and I find the thing pretty marginal myself. I would however like to try the game on it. Anyone have any worthwhile feedback (other than price related)
 
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In my world, you can't pretend reality changes because Apple says it does - or the market says it does.
Well you should try living in the real world for a change DArtagnan.




(sorry... I know... couldn't resist. :p)
 
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I can't prove anything to you.

You think 10$ = 25$. Why? Because of "market realities".

I don't think so.

In my world, you can't pretend reality changes because Apple says it does - or the market says it does. You have to consider what's "fair" and not just what makes the best business sense.

In this case, it wouldn't make sense to charge more than 10$ - but it WOULD make sense to compensate those who paid so much more for it. Especially since it's no longer about value - as Vogel clearly demonstrates. So his point about depth/longevity being such a big part of the price is a joke now.

This I guess is where we have to agree to disagree. You clearly live in a different "reality" from mine. To me your notions of "fair" and "worth" and "value" sound entirely arbitrary.
Personally I just hope that it goes well for Vogel and that hordes of angry PC gamers don't drive him away from that platform entirely.
 
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The world is what we make of it.

Why do you think Apple games generally sell at such a low price? That's because they're small and relatively limited in scope. They're MEANT for a very specific market segment - and that's exactly why Vogel has been resistant to going to that platform.

He's been arguing that his games would never fit on there, because they're too long and too deep for the 15-minute experience. Also, he's been going on about the prices being too low - because his games hold more value.

Look at him today.

Is he wrong to go that way? No, obviously it fits with his plan.

But can't he just be upfront about it?
 
This I guess is where we have to agree to disagree. You clearly live in a different "reality" from mine. To me your notions of "fair" and "worth" and "value" sound entirely arbitrary.
Personally I just hope that it goes well for Vogel and that hordes of angry PC gamers don't drive him away from that platform entirely.

Nothing wrong with disagreeing.

I hope the best for everyone, including Vogel.

But I will never support deception or delusion.

I have zero doubt that he'll enjoy success on the iPad platform. I don't think he has anything to worry about.
 
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