Grimoire - Released

[you]

Didn't 1000+ folks support him on the various crowd raising campaigns ?

Between 1K and 3K sounds about right.

That's around twice what I would have expected it to sell at that price - at this stage.

The tricky part, if he wants to maximise profit, is when to put it on sale. Too soon, and it could burn him big time. Too late, and the momentum is lost.

I would pay ~10-15$ - personally. But I guess if ~2K are willing to pay 33$ - then I could be off by 5$ or so. 20$ could be the sweet spot, and I bet he would have exceeded 5K sales at this point - at that price.

How unfortunate that he didn't get off his ass so many years ago and finish it up. He could have made quite the name for himself. Well, in a popular way instead of what he's done to himself now.

But I'm one to talk. I've been making a somewhat similar game for around 10 years - and I've hardly begun yet.

To actually finish something on this scale, by yourself, is a major feat as far as I'm concerned.

Again, I hope he gets properly rewarded - and I hope it's as good as the fanatically biased fans are saying.

Heck, it doesn't have to be all that good - just a decent crawler.

I would actually like to buy it just to support him - but not at that crazily arrogant price. He needs to see reason first.

 

[Mercutio]

Think BG2 was like that, different mix of enemies rather than scaling enemies. Definitely prefer this approach to that of Oblivion.

 

[abharsair]

If Cleve is to be believed, not to the level, but to how you fare in fights.

While it might not scale to your level, it still scales to something. So yes, Ripper is right when he says arguing about it is merely semantics, because "performance scaling" or "reputation scaling" or whatever you want to call it would have pretty much the same effect as good ol' Oblivion level-scaling. Maybe not as blatantly obvious (no bandits in glass armor), but still very similar.

 

[Turjan]

Didn't 1000+ folks support him on the various crowd raising campaigns ?

He just started to hand out keys for those, so they can't be included in any statistics.
Backers last .

 

[NewDArt]

Obviously, there's a huge difference in terms of how games use scaling and what it means for the experience. The word "scaling" doesn't make Oblivion's atrociously simplistic approach identical to all other kinds of scaling with the only possible differences being semantic.

It will depend on exactly how it works.

 

[luj1]

The game doesn't exist, what was released was a 'superdemo' repackaged. And it is just a prototype he stole when he was kicked out of Sir-tech

You are tripping balls.

 

[Turjan]

Think BG2 was like that, different mix of enemies rather than scaling enemies. Definitely prefer this approach to that of Oblivion.

You definitely need some kind of scaling for at least a subset of encounters in open world RPG's. Most have some kind.

I guess Oblivion gets mentioned all the time because it had a very bad implementation. Nobody uses Morrowind as an example, although it also scales encounters. Some games, like Pillars of Eternity, needed to patch it in to help with the balance.

 

[Ripper]

To clarify, I'm not saying making a distinction between Oblivion and better implementations is semantic. That's a different argument, as is the idea of level scaling being a good thing, and fair enough.

What I'm saying is semantics is ruling out that the fact that a game uses a form of level scaling because it doesn't specifically rely on the stat named "level". Imagine an RPG that doesn't use levels as such, and just relies upon stats, skills, etc. If that game dynamically altered the enemies, their weapons, their loot, based upon some calculation of the player's stats and combat record, I wouldn't accept the argument that it's not level scaling because one's level of power isn't expressed by the word "level".

 

[abharsair]

The word "scaling" doesn't make Oblivion's atrociously simplistic approach identical to all other kinds of scaling with the only possible differences being semantic.

Naturally not all scaling is the same, but it also depends on how much tolerance someone has for any kind of scaling. Take me, for example: I dislike scaling with a passion that's only rivaled by Joxer's hate for bears, microtransactions, and season passes. If I know a game's difficulty automatically adjusts to my current level/past performance/whatever, then it's a huge detriment to my enjoyment of said game. Is this a reasonable attitude toward scaling? Maybe not, but it's the way it is and personal taste is always a subjective matter.

 

[Ripper]

I'm the same when it comes to any whiff of scaling spoiling my enjoyment. I only mentioned Oblivion because I saw a guy asking about scaling in Grimoire - he was noticing that he was suddenly encountering much tougher monsters in familiar areas, which reminded me of that experience. I was just surprised, as I wouldn't have thought that's a feature that would be welcomed by the core audience.

 

[NewDArt]

Naturally not all scaling is the same, but it also depends on how much tolerance someone has for any kind of scaling. Take me, for example: I dislike scaling with a passion that's only rivaled by Joxer's hate for bears, microtransactions, and season passes. If I know a game's difficulty automatically adjusts to my current level/past performance/whatever, then it's a huge detriment to my enjoyment of said game. Is this a reasonable attitude toward scaling? Maybe not, but it's the way it is and personal taste is always a subjective matter.

Your tolerance has no influence on how different the implementation can be.

It's like saying all ice cream tastes the same because one person doesn't like ice cream at all.

It makes zero rational sense.

Also, disliking something on principle makes you closed and removed from reality.

If you go too far in that direction, you end up in joxer land.

But but, be my guest.

It's no less emotionally stained than luj's obsessive love for this game and Ripper's inability to realise his own severe limitations as a supposed "smart person".

 

[Ripper]

It's no less emotionally stained than luj's obsessive love for this game and Ripper's inability to realise his own severe limitations as a supposed "smart person".

Too...much...irony...

 

[Deleted User]

Gothic/Risen and soon ELEX won't have scaling. I personally don't think it's necessary for open world RPGs. I like running into tough/impossible encounters and knowing I can come back later to explore the area.

 

[NewDArt]

Gothic/Risen and soon ELEX won't have scaling. I personally don't think it's necessary for open world RPGs. I like running into tough/impossible encounters and knowing I can come back later to explore the area.

There's nothing about scaling that would make the above impossible. Again, it's about implementation and approach. Lots of games feature scaling for other reasons than to take away challenge. Some scale to ensure challenge and some do it to optimise fun.

 

[Deleted User]

I'd like to see a modern Morrowind type RPG with even less scaling than MW had. Just hand craft the world, smartly place enemies and encounters, keep it somewhat unpredictable and give hints and clues with the world building like Gothic/Risen does (ie. "Better stay out of that forest, stranger.") Would be cool.

 

[NewDArt]

Scaling isn't what makes Beth games doable at most levels. It's the completely open character and combat systems. If you want an "impossible" fight in those games, you would have to severely reduce the options to approach combat - much like Gothic and Witcher 3. Scaling is there to make challenge appropriate in a world that's supposed to be completely open - and it's been steadily refined.

You'll meet a lot of very high level enemies in Skyrim or Fallout 4 if you go free roaming as a lower level character, it's just not the norm.

But even as a low level, you can defeat the high level enemies because of the freeform character development.

 

[abharsair]

Your tolerance has no influence on how different the implementation can be.

True.

It's like saying all ice cream tastes the same because one person doesn't like ice cream at all.

Sure, but I didn't say that, though. I originally said (and I quote): "While it might not scale to your level, it still scales to something." … "So yes, Ripper is right when he says arguing about it is merely semantics, because 'performance scaling' or 'reputation scaling' or whatever you want to call it would have pretty much the same effect as good ol' Oblivion level-scaling." None of those statements equated Grimoire's scaling mechanics to Oblivion's. What I did equate was their effect, and that's an automatic adjustment of a game's difficulty (which doesn't necessarily mean bandits in glass armor) based on a player's performance/level/or other factors.

Also, disliking something on principle makes you closed and removed from reality.

Not necessarily. I know that millions of flies like to eat feces, but I'm just fine with my principle to never try it. Might be narrow-minded, but I'm OK with that. And unlike trying feces, I have played games with level scaling, so my dislike comes from experience.

If you go too far in that direction, you end up in joxer land.

I think there's worse places to be. Cleveland, for example.

It's no less emotionally stained than luj's obsessive love for this game and Ripper's inability to realise his own severe limitations as a supposed "smart person".

OK, -those- comparisons were just mean. But I'll forgive you.

 

[NewDArt]

Sure, but I didn't say that, though. I originally said (and I quote): "While it might not scale to your level, it still scales to something." … "So yes, Ripper is right when he says arguing about it is merely semantics, because 'performance scaling' or 'reputation scaling' or whatever you want to call it would have pretty much the same effect as good ol' Oblivion level-scaling." None of those statements equated Grimoire's scaling mechanics to Oblivion's. What I did equate was their effect, and that's an automatic adjustment of a game's difficulty (which doesn't necessarily mean bandits in glass armor) based on a player's performance/level/or other factors.

This isn't about Grimoire vs Oblivion - as it's pretty clear no one here seems to understand how the scaling in Grimoire even works.

Even if we did, there's nothing about "performance scaling" that's automatically bad.

It would depend on the nature of it - and the result of it. Too much scaling or too little might be to the detriment of the experience - but just the right amount might actually improve it.

One game might scale to a ridiculous degree - and Oblivion is an excellent example of that. It was not only blatant - it was also literally visible because of the infamous gear-scaled bandits.

It's an example of scaling gone wrong, in my opinion. But that doesn't make the concept of scaling wrong.

However, that was not what I was talking about. This is about what you said in response to my point:

Naturally not all scaling is the same, but it also depends on how much tolerance someone has for any kind of scaling. Take me, for example: I dislike scaling with a passion that's only rivaled by Joxer's hate for bears, microtransactions, and season passes. If I know a game's difficulty automatically adjusts to my current level/past performance/whatever, then it's a huge detriment to my enjoyment of said game. Is this a reasonable attitude toward scaling? Maybe not, but it's the way it is and personal taste is always a subjective matter.

You're saying your personal tolerance somehow holds the power to make very different kinds of scaling into the same thing.

Again, you're displaying dislike of scaling as a principle - not an open-minded and informed preference.

Not necessarily. I know that millions of flies like to eat feces, but I'm just fine with my principle to never try it. Might be narrow-minded, but I'm OK with that. And unlike trying feces, I have played games with level scaling, so my dislike comes from experience.

You seem confused. A principle is a fundamental truth that remains forever unchanged. Well, that's the idea - but people tend to change them all the time - which is why it's stupid to have them in most cases

Your decision to not eat shit is not based on a principle, I'd wager. It's based on sound decision making, like believing your nose - for instance.

The question is if you're open to new ideas - and whether you have the ability to change your position based on new information. Like, say, if your nose suddenly smelled bacon when it smelled shit - you might start having new ideas about it

To stay with this and make it a metaphor, your nose is not active when you respond to scaling. Your senses are closed off - because you've decided you hate it.

OK, -those- comparisons were just mean. But I'll forgive you.

I don't do mean - I do plain speaking

 

[Mercutio]

Cleve's recent thoughts on the matter:

GOLDEN ERA GAMES [developer] 2 minutes ago

Scaling is a plot by Satan to harvest men's souls. No scaling in Grimoire. If you win combats too easily you attract bigger crowds of monsters. That's the closest to scaling.

 

[NewDArt]

Well, that's clearly a form of performance scaling - meaning it's as terrible as Oblivion if certain people here are too be believed