Siege of Dragonspear - Review @ RPS

[lostforever]

I wish reviewers would play with open cards, but they don't. I for example, am a 43 year old white male, heterosexual, religious, married with a wife and daughter, and consider myself politically centrist, though my voting record would suggest I vote more often for the democrats than the republicans. My best friend from my university days came out as gay, and that's not a problem for me. I also work as a elementary school teacher, 23 of my colleagues are women, 2 are men, and I think I get along with them all well. I tend to be live and let live, though I dislike extremism in any form, and for freedom of speech as long as conversation doesn't turn abusive and disrespectful. I do have friends both more conservative and liberal than I am, and think I can understand people with different opinions than I have. Anyways the content in SODS that I've come across doesn't really bother me. I could see how it could bother a few of my conservative friends on principal.

Take your favourite/beloved fantasy stories, say Lord of the Rings. Someone comes around and say its racist and sexiest and try to rewrite. How will you feel?

 

[forgottenlor]

You're critiquing the writer's interview though and not the game, which I'm assuming you haven't played, correct? You can oppose her attitude on principle. Personally Jaheira was my favorite companion in Baldur's Gate 2, and I disagree with the author's opinion of her. Look, I've played 7 hours and haven't even met Jaheira yet. I'm not sure if she even plays much of a role in the game. I know the author's opinions, but I haven't seen it reflected much in the game so far.

 

[JDR13]

I have a problem with the way LGBT agenda was implemented in SoD, not with LGBT itself.

I don't support nor am against LGBT. I call all political agendas rubbish. You know what? People can feel uncomfortable about the whole LGBT issue. That is NOT a problem as long as you treat anyone, including LGBT, with respectl.

You seem to be basing your entire argument on the assumption that there actually was an "agenda".

Whether or not Beamdog ever had an agenda was\is nothing but speculation on the part of a very outspoken minority.

 

[Ripper]

I wish reviewers would play with open cards, but they don't. I for example, am a 43 year old white male, heterosexual, religious, married with a wife and daughter, and consider myself politically centrist, though my voting record would suggest I vote more often for the democrats than the republicans. My best friend from my university days came out as gay, and that's not a problem for me. I also work as a elementary school teacher, 23 of my colleagues are women, 2 are men, and I think I get along with them all well. I tend to be live and let live, though I dislike extremism in any form, and am for freedom of speech as long as conversation doesn't turn abusive and disrespectful. I do have friends both more conservative and liberal than I am, and think I can understand people with different opinions than I have. Anyways the content in SODS that I've come across doesn't really bother me. I could see how it could bother a few of my conservative friends on principal.

I completely agree. It is exactly this issue of putting cards on the table when making a criticism that I am driving at.

My theory is that some people hold these views, but, because they run counter to the prevailing view in modern society, they fear they will attract a certain stigma. So, I think they try to reframe the situation to avoid declaring their position, and turn it into a problem on the part of the writers, or whoever. Instead of saying "My belief is this", it is transformed into objective failing on the part of the writers, that avoids showing their hand. I think it's intellectually dishonest.

 

[abharsair]

I wish reviewers would play with open cards, but they don't. I for example, am …

Not a reviewer, but sure, I'm game.

White, married, got a kid, consider myself pretty much in the middle of the political spectrum (or actually nowhere on that spectrum), and like to ponder on good ideas no matter where they come from. Since my "middle of the political spectrum" is located in a European country, my American in-laws like to think of me as a Commie or a bleeding-heart liberal, but they're too well-mannered to say it to my face. I guess if I had to give myself a label it'd be "realistic progressive".

For what it's worth, I'd play a gay Geralt of Rivia and collect sex cards with dudes on them - assuming it's marketed as such from the beginning.

What I dislike deeply are blanket statements, black and white thinking without moral ambiguity, "holier than thou" attitudes, and a lack of humor. Especially the last one.

 

[forgottenlor]

Not a reviewer, but sure, I'm game.

White, married, got a kid, consider myself pretty much in the middle of the political spectrum (or actually nowhere on that spectrum), and like to consider good ideas from just about anywhere they come from. Since my "middle of the political spectrum" is located in a European country, my American in-laws like to think of me as a Commie or a bleeding-heart liberal, but they're too well-mannered to say it to my face. I guess if I had to give myself a label it'd be "realistic progressive".

For what it's worth, I'd play a gay Geralt of Rivia and collect sex cards with dudes on them - assuming it's marketed as such from the beginning.

What I dislike deeply are blanket statements, black and white thinking without moral ambiguity, "holier than thou" attitudes, and a lack of humor. Especially the last one.

I'm honestly not sure I'd want to play a gay Gerald of Rivia, so you're more progressive than me there. I collected as many of the girl cards as I could in the first game, though. I only played it at night when my daughter was sleeping, and my wife was in front of the T.V. My wife came in and saw me playing a few times, but didn't see any of the cards, I'm not sure what she would have thought of them, but I doubt it would be very positive.
I do play female protagonists though, especially in games with few romantic interests. However, I did play Wu the Lotus Flower in Jade Empire and seduced the princess (or was it the other way around?) That's more than anyone probably wanted to know.

 

[Archangel]

I would not mind playing a gay Geralt if I could still be badass with him and could say no to all the men approaching him. It would be just like playing a game that has no romances and I played a lot of those already so not a big deal.

 

[abharsair]

I would not mind playing a gay Geralt if I could still be badass with him and could say no to all the men approaching him. It would be just like playing a game that has no romances and I played a lot of those already so not a big deal.

I think "Geralt" and "badass" are synonyms.

 

[Archangel]

I think "Geralt" and "badass" are synonyms.

Not if he would be the girly gay version
In the gay version badass needs to be mentioned

 

[Turjan]

Not if he would be the girly gay version
In the gay version badass needs to be mentioned

Isn't this exactly the crux of this whole debate? It would not have to be mentioned. It's much superior if it's actually shown. And there's no doubt that Geralt is badass, the way he acts.

Show, don't tell.

 

[Deleted User]

I think a lot of you are being very dishonest, whether it's intentional or you don't even realize you're doing it, I highly suggest you take a good long look at yourself and start to try to understand your emotions and feelings to people who are different than you. There's really nothing else that needs to be said because that entire side of the argument is wrong, period.

Example, for those who may not even see their own bigotry. Calling an implementation of LGBT writing "heavy-handed" is like shining a bright beacon of your bigotry above your head. Think about that for a moment. If you're truly being honest with yourself and with others, you will see how absolutely ridiculous it is to consider someone writing about normal people like you and me "heavy-handed". Absolutely outrageous and you should be ashamed of yourself.

If I even have to further go on, it's like saying, "Hey, there are too many black people in this game! Their implementation of black people is very heavy-handed." I mean, seriously, be honest with yourself and others. Accept that you are bigoted and work at trying to view everyone as equals. That is the first step to bettering yourself as a human being. And we should all be trying to better ourselves everyday and the make the world a better place for everyone.

 

[Drithius]

Pretentious much?

I can reverse the tables just as easily and dismiss your sociology 101 commentary as naive and trivializing any dissenting opinion.

 

[Turjan]

Pretentious much?

I can reverse the tables just as easily and dismiss your sociology 101 commentary as naive and trivializing any dissenting opinion.

Pretty much this. There may be bigots around, but that broad brush up there is uncalled for. I have gay friends, and I pretty much helped some other friends dealing with their daughter choosing a transgender path for her life. They were actually quite surprised and happy that they had someone who just accepted this and tried to make the best of the situation. They are still thankful for this.

Case in point, there were quite a few transgender people who criticized the heavy-handed writing. According to the logic above, those were transgender anti-trans bigots?

Edit: In principle, this whole discussion about those two small text snippets is a big smokescreen that diverts from more profound criticisms of the writing.

 

[Silver]

Calling an implementation of LGBT writing "heavy-handed" is like shining a bright beacon of your bigotry above your head.

Do you understand the concept of critique? This is the with us or against us attitude people are talking about. And no Fluent you should be embarrassed to have written that.

If I even have to further go on, it's like saying, "Hey, there are too many black people in this game! Their implementation of black people is very heavy-handed." I mean, seriously, be honest with yourself and others. Accept that you are bigoted and work at trying to view everyone as equals.

Way to muddy the issue there Fluent considering no-one is saying anything remotely like this.

 

[Silver]

From PurpleBlob

I tend to be a conservative person, and with the inclusion of gay and transsexual characters I felt like the game was trying to force me into accepting this, not just in the game, but outside of it as well. That can taint an experience, and it tainted mine.

…For me, I’m just disappointed that Beamdog had to go there and make this a political type of game instead of concentrating on interesting story and FUN.

From Ripper

This was from a review that was quoted here, and the emphasis is from the original post, not mine. If the complaint is that the inclusion of LGBT characters “taints” the experience, because it feels like it forces one to accept them, there can be little doubt what the position is. It is far from an isolated case.

That is mis-interpreting PurpleBlobs position. Purpleblob is complaining about the writing being preachy and denying any role playing options other than 'cool story' as a response. If you are playing alignments other than lawful good this is a concern. Again a with us or against us response.

The concern expressed here is the inclusion of what is referred to as “LGBT crap”. It is perceived to be “tainting” the game with politics. This idea of mere inclusion being perceived as a political act is what reveals the nature of the objection. Some people, like Fluent and Thrasher, are responding to that.

And this is the preachy part.

 

[Deleted User]

Preachy. Right. Then if that's the case, I will preach equality ALL DAY LONG, baby.

I've said what I needed to say. You all can twist it and do whatever you'd like, but the truth is there for anyone to see. You can skirt and dance around all you like but the fact of the matter is that LGBT are here, they're humans like everyone else and they're here to stay in video games and in the world itself. You can fight all you like but you're just going to end up being another footnote on the wrong side of history.

 

[Silver]

Preachy. Right. Then if that's the case, I will preach equality ALL DAY LONG, baby.

I've said what I needed to say. You all can twist it and do whatever you'd like, but the truth is there for anyone to see. You can skirt and dance around all you like but the fact of the matter is that LGBT are here, they're humans like everyone else and they're here to stay in video games and in the world itself. You can fight all you like but you're just going to end up being another footnote on the wrong side of history.

No-ones skirting anything except you and for like the third time no-one is arguing against there inclusion. Do you even read the responses people make?

 

[Deleted User]

I'll admit I got a little worked up over this.

Hey, I will just stop myself. I have to, or else I'll have to go work off my frustrations at the gym or something, and the universe knows I don't want to do that. I used to have a Slam-Man, and they are pretty sweet. Highly recommend them.

http://www.sportsdayhire.co.uk/Images/ActivityImages/Boxing/Slam Man 1.gif

 

[Myrthos]

After browsing the last three pages, I think there is quite a bit of misunderstanding going on. I personally still don't get where all the turmoil is about, but I also have never been able to care that much about any game, even if it is named Baldur's Gate.
Perhaps taking a step back for a day or so, might be good for some, I personally find that things people have written often look different after a day

 

[Arkadia7]

Yea, some perspective is needed, lol. It sounded like some of the pro-Siege of Dragonspearers were saying the following - "You will buy this game, and you will say you love it, damn it! Otherwise, you are such a terrible person and human being…" Whoa, I didn't realize this game was such a test of our inner moral character, lol. Some folks need to relax, just a wee bit.

The bottom line is, yes, some people will have different tastes than you, and its something best to learn to live with. If you love LGBT and sexuality in your rpg games, then wonderful, good for you. Just try to understand that others can have different tastes, and there is nothing wrong with that either…both positions are perfectly fine to have (personally, I could do without the sexuality stuff in my rpg games, and would prefer that game developers spend the effort on more dungeons or areas to explore instead, *shrug*). Lastly, people can choose to dislike things for any reason, it could be as trivial or as serious as you like, but they are entitled to like or dislike things for any reason under the sun, it is called freedom…