I agree with Christina Hoff Sommers - she summarizes the current situation of female and male gamers pretty good from a neutral standpoint.
ThinkProgress - Felicia Day Targeted in Hate Campaign
- Thread starter Aubrielle
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CHS is a 64-year-old anti-feminist that comes from a time where people were far cozier with gender inequality, and her critique suggests that not only is she really old-fashioned and conservative, but patriarchal as well.
Paraphrased argument: "Most gamers are male, so women as sex objects is totally okay because boys will be boys."
I might as well start a video blog called "Factual Conservative", starring me, where I express blatantly liberal views while masquerading as a right-wing activist.
Show me a younger fourth-wave feminist more in touch with the reality on the ground and I may be a little more convinced.
Paraphrased argument: "Most gamers are male, so women as sex objects is totally okay because boys will be boys."
I might as well start a video blog called "Factual Conservative", starring me, where I express blatantly liberal views while masquerading as a right-wing activist.
Show me a younger fourth-wave feminist more in touch with the reality on the ground and I may be a little more convinced.
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bradleypariah
The Scavenger
Agreed.
ORIGINAL ARTICLE said:
BULL. Boogie2988 was doxxed and he's a man. It's Sarkeesian logic to say only women get doxxed.
I don't approve of this volatile behavior, btw. No one deserves this abuse. Gamergate just needs to end. The true meaning behind gamergate was ruined. It was only supposed to be a cry for fair journalism. Now all it serves to prove is that gamers are all racist misogynists. The horible part is that a few trolls are "proving" to the world that it's true! I hate this whole thing! It just sucks that some of the people who want to end gamergate are such morons. It makes me so mad.
#EndGamerGate #EndGamerGatePeacefully
I agree as I long ago gave up hope of seeing any of my front-page news, and interviews get more than five comments. The excuse from what I was told was no one has time.
This thread does prove that excuse wrong though, but thats okay as it's been this way for a long time. I doubt it's going to change anytime soon.
So before I forget thank you for your post, and your understanding. I only wish more members were like you, and just ignored the news they don't like.
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You rip her up pretty good on a personal level. She's old? Really? That's all you got? Sorry, but after watching the video she makes some good arguments worthy of a response magnitudes better than an Alinsky style attack. And I don't even disagree with you on many of your prior posts…
S
Sacred_Path
Guest
What is your stance on video games perpetuating violence then? As an RPG player, my guess would be that you don't have problems with that.
As for your comments on age: verifiable statements are true independent of age. OTOH of course, if we're just talking about everyone's two cents, age might be a factor here but nothing invalidates some 60 year old's personal views, certainly not the fact that 20somethings struggling to find an identity have different opinons.
There was an argument there, MadGamer.
I'm not very erudite right now because I'm ill but let me help try to elaborate…If you listen to her arguments for yourself, she's obviously as much a feminist as I am a Teabagger. She uses data that suggests that 1 in 7 serious gamers are female. Okay…I might at least not argue that until I can find better data, but moving on…she suggests that because of those numbers, it's totally okay to have zero female protagonists…and women objectified as sex objects…because men will be men.
I'm sorry, but that should be offensive to men too! Is she saying that because you're men, all you want is T&A? That's sexist! Because of her age, maybe she's alright with generalizations, that's all I meant.
I will concede that my statement might have been a bit ageist. And that's probably the only concession anywhere on this forum, so please make note of it.
Edit: Like I said, I'm not feeling well at all. I'm gonna take some NyQuil and focus on getting better. I know that my showing up and posting on this thread is probably gonna be seen as irresistible bait for the patriarchal entitlement crowd, and that's alright.
I have one last thing to say before I leave. This thread is twelve pages long. You've - all of you - shown that this is a topic that matters to you, and we've listened. You're likely to see more articles like this in the days to come.
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CelticFrost
SasqWatch
- Joined
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The company I work for had a branch in this one town. We closed it down but still did business there. Since I had built and designed the branch one day when I was in that town, I stopped by just to see how different it looked inside.
The business that had moved in there is a "Woman's only gym". When I walked in the door it was said to me "you can not come in here, leave." When I tried to explained why I had come in I was told it didn't matter "Men can not come in here".
Now I have been in the world of body building for years. I know some gym owners and almost bought one 4 years ago. Do you think I could own a men's only gym???
Augusta National Golf Club, a privately owned golf course has taken pressure for years because it is a men's only course. To the point that in 2002 and 2003 they played the Masters there with no sponsorship. They didn't want companies to feel pressure from "Woman's groups".
“ Our membership is single gender just as many other organizations and clubs all across America. These would include Junior Leagues, sororities, fraternities, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, and countless others. And we all have a moral and legal right to organize our clubs the way we wish.[41] ”
What if all my friends were only body builders over 6' tall and 240lbs and they were the only people I let come over for dinner. Should some group of people that didn't like this practice of mine be able to make me let others come over?
No matter what it is that someone owns or makes what gives people the right to tell them they can't if they are not breaking any rules or laws?
As a parent I can choose to let my children play a game or not and teach them why. As an adult I can choose to buy a game and play it or not. It would seem to me people want to stick their nose in other peoples business for no good reasons but their own. When there is a backlash they don't like it all not to say death threats are the way to go.
The business that had moved in there is a "Woman's only gym". When I walked in the door it was said to me "you can not come in here, leave." When I tried to explained why I had come in I was told it didn't matter "Men can not come in here".
Now I have been in the world of body building for years. I know some gym owners and almost bought one 4 years ago. Do you think I could own a men's only gym???
Augusta National Golf Club, a privately owned golf course has taken pressure for years because it is a men's only course. To the point that in 2002 and 2003 they played the Masters there with no sponsorship. They didn't want companies to feel pressure from "Woman's groups".
“ Our membership is single gender just as many other organizations and clubs all across America. These would include Junior Leagues, sororities, fraternities, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, and countless others. And we all have a moral and legal right to organize our clubs the way we wish.[41] ”
What if all my friends were only body builders over 6' tall and 240lbs and they were the only people I let come over for dinner. Should some group of people that didn't like this practice of mine be able to make me let others come over?
No matter what it is that someone owns or makes what gives people the right to tell them they can't if they are not breaking any rules or laws?
As a parent I can choose to let my children play a game or not and teach them why. As an adult I can choose to buy a game and play it or not. It would seem to me people want to stick their nose in other peoples business for no good reasons but their own. When there is a backlash they don't like it all not to say death threats are the way to go.
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Branq
Watcher
Your parents shaped you. Because of their (in)ability to educate you to my way of thinking, I put the responsibility on them to fix you.
See what I did there? Sense, it does not make.
You trolled me?
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Farflame
SasqWatch
Is it important how she calls herself or her channell?
Dont exaggerate so much. What is this?
http://www.complex.com/pop-culture/...-heroines-in-video-game-history/madison-paige
Just one random example. There are more heroines than that.
Well… do men have to take it offensive? Or anyone, including women?
- Maybe they just think its stupid and shallow - suited for male teenagers. If they think these games are not done for them they are probably not offended at all. Or are you offended by children products?
- Every big game has some biggest target group - so maybe its mainly about business standards to make bigger profit and not so much about sexism.
- Is every hot chick in game symbol of offensive sexism or some other hidden meaning?
- Some men dont like it too and may basically agree with you. But they probably dont care. They just go find better game.
- Do you understand and respect there may be other (valid) reasons to play such games? For example if people want to clear some map in FPS, they dont care much about story. They want some quick fun, forgot about daily routine, work and stress… so why should they bother about some real life ideology? They dont think that games or NPCs portrayed in games are "center of the universe".
Humanity has risen!
SasqWatch
"People who don't agree with me should just stay quiet!" makes people look retarded or maybe homeschooled. I come here for the RPG news, and I appreciate everything related to that. I even appreciate news/ discussions about gaming at large, as long as the discussions are sensible. People pulling accusations against other gamers out of their ass aren't acting sensibly though.
I visit this site for RPG related things and will continue to do so as long as that's its focus. That's certainly not a threat, just reasonable behaviour. In the meantime, don't expect me to not speak my mind just because it might offend you.
This is what some people do not get. I don't think anyone who ever posted here ever wanted to prevent any woman who might like videogames to indulge in her hobby, or ever relished or condoned seeing a woman being harassed.
However, there is a difference between treating everyone with a bare minimum of human dignity and decency, and being lumped in on nearly the same level as some genuine miscreants trying to wreak havoc in people's lives, or being hinted that "if you don't espouse the same progressive views I do and to the same extent, you're a bad person and you should feel bad". That is where the line is drawn I think for many of us.
I think indeed we want to simply indulge in our favorite hobby and by and large enjoy a respite from the vagaries of the world around us, which includes a respite from such politicizing.
And if you're going to make such bold claims, then yes of course people will feel compelled to retort them, and no so long as you are treated with said modicum of human decency it does not constitute harassment, or a telltale sign of just what you were trying to point out. It simply is people who disagree with such claims and who will point out why. It comes with the territory.
K
Kyrer
Guest
I have some conflicting thoughts on this topic. On the one hand, I personally don't like the portrayal of women in certain games; I find it both offensive and anachronistic. However, I also don't like the idea that one group of people can tell another group what type of media they should and shouldn't be able to consume. I don't enjoy the tone of some games, so I don't buy them, but if others do then good for them.
If the result of this feminist analysis is a heightened awareness of how genders are represented in games, then I'm all for it; I hope it leads to more gender equality in the whole industry generally. However, I don't think it's right to attack people who also choose to play games that don't always confirm to politically correct ideals. Art should be allowed to be edgy at times, and any attempt that seeks to repress that is just going to cause further problems. Education is always preferable to censorship.
If the result of this feminist analysis is a heightened awareness of how genders are represented in games, then I'm all for it; I hope it leads to more gender equality in the whole industry generally. However, I don't think it's right to attack people who also choose to play games that don't always confirm to politically correct ideals. Art should be allowed to be edgy at times, and any attempt that seeks to repress that is just going to cause further problems. Education is always preferable to censorship.
"Teabagger" is another ad-hominem that, if what you're really interested in is promoting your point of view, should be left to what Obama likes to call, JV Teams. "Teabagger" is pejorative, while "feminist" sounds righteous. I'll be the last to deny that I'm a curmudgeon in many ways. But I'm more open minded than most curmudgeons. Since I've been around the block a few times, I'll just tell you that whenever I start to hear ad-hominems from the right or the left, they lose my attention. It's boring and doesn't move any balls forward. I refer you to Dr. Seuss', 'The Zax.' I'd venture to guess I'm not the only person on Earth who might get this way.
I watched the video a second time since you suggested that I do. I think your conclusion is wrong. What I hear her saying is that it's no surprise that companies make female protagonists sexy and objectified because it sells. She doesn't seem to indicate that it's right or wrong, just that it makes business sense - as loathsome as it might be to some people that many boys like to see as many as-close-to-naked-girls as they can. She also says in the video that there are plenty of games that portray females with "correct" measurements and appropriate clothing and by her tone, she seems to appreciate that (I do too, because I think objectified female videogame characters are stupid, but what do I know, I'm old). So I think you conclude incorrectly that she condones the practice of objectified females. Probably because you seem to loathe what you perceive to be her general worldview from the get go.
I have one last thing to say before I leave. This thread is twelve pages long. You've - all of you - shown that this is a topic that matters to you, and we've listened. You're likely to see more articles like this in the days to come.
This topic DOES matter. Absolutely. No question. Though I'm unlikely to participate in another thread of this kind here at RPGWatch. I usually stay out of these kinds of discussions at this site, but made an exception this time. I have no problems if you post more stuff like this here, seems most posters here want to read about this subject and discuss it.
That all said, it's a young person's world now. My generation are on their way out. The world will be what you make of it and whatever that ends up being, you'll get to live in it as well. Good luck millennials. I mean that sincerely.
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I recently came across a new word : It's called "Anita's Law".
It basically consists of this :
If you are a woman complaining about harassment because of your gender, the following reactions will consist of harassment because of your gender.
It basically consists of this :
If you are a woman complaining about harassment because of your gender, the following reactions will consist of harassment because of your gender.
That's indeed a very levelheaded analysis here. Most people would come to similar conclusions if they actually cared to look into the details of this whole affair.
#gamergate will continue to grow, if this campaign spearheaded by Gawker media doesn't make a reality check and stops indiscriminately demonizing the majority of gamers, who support #gamergate because of the very real ethical questions that were originally and still are behind it. The current harassing and muzzling strategy will only get these SJW so far, and I use the term SJW lightly, because they are to busy sweeping their own ethics problems under the rug.
Video games is not a media to force your idea of a utopian society on people. It's a leisure activity, a fun digression from the real world, a world of wishful thinking. If the current games don't cater to your tastes, make your own. Don't force your idea of fun on others. You are not the center of the universe. And whoever had the idea to change society by forcing specific video games on them needs his or her head checked. You may feel you are on the right side of history and still be wrong.
Also, Totalbiscuit got lots of nasty comments for trying to stay fair in this discussion. Even if you don't like him, it's worth listening to:
https://soundcloud.com/totalbiscuit/whose-side-am-i-on
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Some of the best game designers in the industry are women. I admire Linda Currie (JA 2, Wizardry 8) and Jane Jensen (Gabriel Knight); Roberta Williams (King's Quest) and Sheri Graner Ray (Ultima).
Great interview with Sheri about Equality in Gaming:
Great interview with Sheri about Equality in Gaming:
indeed. There are quite a few women who make games and also lots who play games. Make games that women or all genders like, and these gender issues will disappear one day.
This current affair just won't die down because this was misappropriated as an attack on women in gaming. Which was not the point.
This current affair just won't die down because this was misappropriated as an attack on women in gaming. Which was not the point.