ThinkProgress - Felicia Day Targeted in Hate Campaign

[HiddenX]

@Turjan - you mentioned the Assassin's Creed boycott - noone should should interact with game designers in such a rude way, such as boycotts.

• Asking politely works much better in most cases.
• Buying lots of games that feature female protagonists helps, too.
• Learning to program games like the four women I mentioned before is a cool way to make games you like.
• Playing CRPGs in which you can select the gender is the easiest way to get your fun.

3 days ago I didn't know anything about #Gamergate (*) and I still don't get it.

(*) maybe because I don't use Facebook, smartphones or cellphones

 

[CelticFrost]

3 days ago I didn't know anything about #Gamergate (*) and I still don't get it.

(*) maybe because I don't use Facebook, smartphones or cellphones

That is exactly me three days ago as well, did some google searching and asked around but still it seems like a few with nothing better to do but try and cause a problem where there none.

Though I do have a phone, only because of work. Though most of my family and friends get mad because come Friday night and work is done for the week I turn it off until late Sunday night or Monday morning.

 

[Turjan]

@Turjan - you mentioned the Assassin's Creed boycott - noone should should interact with game designers in such a rude way, such as boycotts.

It's unnecessary anyway. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Voting with your wallet this way is fine, but a boycott in this case seems a bit overly dramatic, given that Ubisoft is usually pretty good with female protagonists. They are hitting the wrong target.

3 days ago I didn't know anything about #Gamergate (*) and I still don't get it.

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/events/quinnspiracy

Skim the headlines. That's enough craziness. #gamergate is the Twitter hashtag of the people who pointed this out.

 

[DArtagnan]

No one is doing humanitarian work here - not the readers, not the posters, who - in this case Aubrielle - post exactly whatever they find interesting. I don't have more or less of an agenda here than anybody else, so your point is moot.

No, you're not doing any work here.

Aubrielle posted a RELEVANT news piece that she found interesting. Does that mean she can't also post a RELEVANT news piece at a later date that she doesn't find interesting?

The point is that SHE and others are doing the work - and WE aren't doing anything.

As long as the news posted are relevant to RPGs, the RPG community, the gaming industry in general - I don't think there's a reasonable position from which you can bitch about it.

Doesn't mean you can't express your dislike, which is fine, but to try and control what the site should be like, from your position, is ridiculous.

Then again, I don't think the world should revolve around any single individual, and I care about being reasonable.

BS. Swen isn't important "to me" - he has made a substantial contribution to the genre, arguably more so than Felicia Day. I hate to throw the word "objective" around, but it's fitting here. The head of Larian is also more important than, say, the janitor of Larian - not "to me", but to our mutual hobby.

If he's made a substantial contribution in your eyes - then he's important in your eyes. That's as inescapable as you can get.

There's no objective way to establish what human being is more or less important to the gaming industry. Because there's a past, a present and a future - and we have no way to measure a single person's impact.

So, if a person is part of the industry or a prominent figure in the RPG community - it's relevant as a news piece. That's logic that can't be disputed unless you change the site.

Believing yourself capable of measuring the objective value or relevance of a person in the industry or community, only adds arrogance to your self-centered nature.

 

[Irian]

tss tss http://mindlesszombiestudios.com/content/5-indicators-you’ve-been-misinformed-about-gamergate

Don't make me laugh. Ups, too late.

A posting that starts with a distortion of the facts cannot be taken seriously. No matter how hard some people try to add some sort of legitimization to the whole thing by claiming that it is a moral uproar about "corrupt journalists", it's still simply a lie. Yes, I know that this stuff was among the many, many things thrown around but trying to paint it as the real reason is still just a distortion of the truth.

Ironically, you are linking to a posting that cannot even keep itself consistent, by linking to articles that do nothing to support its point. Another irony is linking to kotaku. Feel free to click other blog postings of Stephen.

(And if you really believe, that the whole thing is a horrible crime story of a sleazy journalist who got sexual favors for praising reviews of casually mentioning a game... Well, I have a Golden Gate Bridge to sell. Interested? )

 

[Sacred_Path]

As long as the news posted are relevant to RPGs, the RPG community, the gaming industry in general - I don't think there's a reasonable position from which you can bitch about it.

We have a circular argument here as we can't agree on what's relevant to this community.

There's no objective way to establish what human being is more or less important to the gaming industry. Because there's a past, a present and a future - and we have no way to measure a single person's impact.

Silly relativism aside, we are looking at what a person has done, is doing, and might do based on the information available so far. Felicia Day isn't an RPG icon simply because it's physically possible that she might one day open her own developing studio and start making RPG's.

 

[DArtagnan]

We have a circular argument here as we can't agree on what's relevant to this community.

Yes, but I provide arguments for why it's relevant that aren't subjective. I don't care about or for Felicia Day - but I recognize that she's a celebrity in the RPG community - and a LOT of people consider her an important part of it. She's also vital to The Guild - which is obviously CRPG and gaming related.

I don't care about agreeing with you - and I don't expect to agree with you.

I'm waiting for you to rationally point out why the above makes her irrelevant, and you're failing utterly.

That means people reading the thread - who aren't biased - should recognise the weakness of the position.

That's really the point here.

Getting people like you or HiddenX to agree or recognise you're wrong would be like convincing EA to focus on art over money. I don't invest in such things.

I just want it clear that you're wrong to people who're not biased. Because I want this site to continue being reasonable and fair - not exclusive based on self-centered points of view. There are enough sites like that already.

Silly relativism aside, we are looking at what a person has done, is doing, and might do based on the information available so far. Felicia Day isn't an RPG icon simply because it's physically possible that she might one day open her own developing studio and start making RPG's.

No, that's not what I'm looking at. I'm looking at whether she's part of the industry or prominent in the RPG community.

I haven't decided to make her popular in the RPG community.

I also haven't decided that Lindsay Lohan should be a celebrity. The fact is that she IS - and I have no business telling other people they shouldn't care about her - nor would I write to IMDB to get them to stop writing about her. That's because it's not my site - and I'm not arrogant enough to push my views upon others in ways that resemble control.

 

[DArtagnan]

If it's such a big problem that some game related subjects generate discussion of a controversial nature, then maybe a compromise would be to have a news subsection dedicated to non-game specific news? As in, news that don't relate to any specific game - but to the industry or the RPG community?

I'd support that, though I don't personally fear debate - and I think it would be absolutely impossible for the News posters to predict exactly what subjects will provoke heated debate.

If Couch already elects NOT to post relevant threads because he's afraid it'll generate debate, then there's already a problem, in my opinion.

There will never be an interesting forum without heated debates every now and then. It'll be nothing but a news section - in that case.

 

[Sacred_Path]

Yes, but I provide arguments for why it's relevant that aren't subjective. I don't care about or for Felicia Day - but I recognize that she's a celebrity in the RPG community - and a LOT of people consider her an important part of it. She's also vital to The Guild - which is obviously CRPG and gaming related.

You can't talk around the fact that it's not gaming news when a voice actor receives threats. There are only two loose connections of this case to gaming in general:

1) the person in question has contributed voice over to games

2) the people who threatened her may or may not have been gamers

none of which affects the industry at large - not directly. There will be more games with voice overs, and I don't have any connections to the people who threatened her, other than I'm a gamer too.

Therefore, from the start, the insinuation in this thread and in this newspost was "Look at what gamers do. If you're a gamer, you must now distance yourself from this behaviour. If you're a male gamer, you're probably a horrible person too. As are your friends." It was obvious the discussion would go down that road and that's what happened.

Aubrielle posted this in the news section not because it's gaming news, but because it would get more views here, and thereby, more semblance of relevance. Though it's also possible that she really believes this somehow says something about gaming in general - which it doesn't. You can make a much better case for games perpetuating real violence and game designers being closet psychopaths - and even that, as we know, lacks evidence.

 

[Sacred_Path]

If it's such a big problem that some game related subjects generate discussion of a controversial nature, then maybe a compromise would be to have a news subsection dedicated to non-game specific news? As in, news that don't relate to any specific game - but to the industry or the RPG community?

I'd support that, though I don't personally fear debate - and I think it would be absolutely impossible for the News posters to predict exactly what subjects will provoke heated debate.

If Couch already elects NOT to post relevant threads because he's afraid it'll generate debate, then there's already a problem, in my opinion.

There will never be an interesting forum without heated debates every now and then. It'll be nothing but a news section - in that case.

Though I don't agree that this newspost is gaming related, I'd find your proposition more acceptable than when this kind of thing is lumped in with actual game news.

 

[Haba]

distortion of the facts cannot be taken seriously

Indeed. I love it how easy it is to identify compromised individuals.

We live in a world where a woman can do no wrong. No matter how vile and abusive she is proven to be, no matter how many speak against of her. Hell, back here we have a convicted paedophile and husband-killer… the former leading detective in her criminal case still firmly believes that she couldn't possibly be a criminal, despite the two separate convictions.

Gaming journalism is inherently corrupt. That's a fact that no-one can dispute. It has been like that since the very beginning. We've all joked about it for decades. We've let those things go for a very long time.

The Zoe Quinn incident was simply a spark that lighted a well stocked tinderbox. Even this week she'll be interviewed about game writing alongside Avellone. Think about that for a moment: a woman with absolutely no achievements on the same level as someone who has built his life career on gaming. This kind of unfair favouritism has become so ingrained in the modern games coverage that no-one even bats an eye at it.

I find it simply disgusting how people are able to dismiss a spontaneous consumer protest as harassment and misogyny… based on actions of anonymous Internet trolls. If any movement can be ruined by flaming on twitter, our online democracy sure has a bright future ahead on us. Never mind the hundreds of women who've publicly stated their support for the said movement...

As for Felicia Day, we males have been getting death threats, being doxxed and even physically attacked for the entirety of our lives. Anonymous vitriol is nothing new to game developers, regardless of gender. Yet this sort of attention is the very thing that drives those thrill-seeking scumbags on. By giving them widespread visibility like this, you're only encouraging more jilted individuals* to make anonymous threats.

Summa summarum, by posting "news" like this, you're only making the lives of public figures more difficult. And as a bonus making me even more convinced that RPGWatch a vile hive of scum and villainy. And possibly alienating every gamer who is sincerely concerned at the cancerous state of the industry today.

*) Trolls OR attention-seeking drama queen indie "developers", pick your poison.

 

[DArtagnan]

Though I don't agree that this newspost is gaming related, I'd find your proposition more acceptable than when this kind of thing is lumped in with actual game news.

Then let's hear what the people in power think

What do you say Myrthos and Co. ?

 

[DArtagnan]

We live in a world where a woman can do no wrong. No matter how vile and abusive she is proven to be, no matter how many speak against of her. Hell, back here we have a convicted paedophile and husband-killer… the former leading detective in her criminal case still firmly believes that she couldn't possibly be a criminal, despite the two separate convictions.

I assume you went through all of that text in your post because you wanted to troll in a non-obvious way?

If that's the case, then may I recommend that you don't start out your post like you did above.

Because people might bother taking you seriously if you stick to reality

 

[Irian]

Well, if you end with the argument that staying silent about harassment, etc. is the way to cure it, you can at least stay consistently out of reality for the beginning, too.

 

[DArtagnan]

Well, if you end with the argument that staying silent about harassment, etc. is the way to cure it, you can at least stay consistently out of reality for the beginning, too.

Good point, but since it comes at the end - people might take the rest seriously and waste time reading - which is the troll's objective

 

[duder113]

Well, if you end with the argument that staying silent about harassment, etc. is the way to cure it, you can at least stay consistently out of reality for the beginning, too.

luckily some don't stay silent
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/for...ear-old-Girl-who-wanted-to-Be-a-good-feminist

http://mindlesszombiestudios.com/content/harassment-no-one-talking-about-gamergate

 

[DArtagnan]

The good old "others do bad things too, so it's ok to do bad things" argument

Point is that discussion is healthy - because there are always reasonable people ready to have their positions challenged and minds enlightened.

Those who don't want to deal with reality won't be helped, but you can't have everything - sadly.

 

[ChienAboyeur]

Do you think I could own a men's only gym???

That is not even the same starting point.

Commonly, these places offer priviledges to women to attend the club. That is not the only business into these practices: the clubbing industry is also much into this.
Free this, free that etc
Nothing free of course but the result of commercial calculation based on actual consideration. Entrepreneurs in those industry monetizes something, gets an undeclared service for some reason they pay for.
After investigation, I found out that female instructors/coaches are in high demand.

Another situation starting from a similar point: management of stars and their fame.
Commonly, stars might be offered free subscriptions or even be paid to attend this or that club. The big difference: it is done openly with the transactions objects being clearly spoken of.
Stars get paid to attend a gym with the expectation their attending attracts people and generate more revenues.

Do star only clubs exist? Arent there somewhere somehow VIP only clubs? Of course there are.

Lamenting the existence of women only clubs is like lamenting the existence of star only clubs.
As soon as the presence of a person is monetized, which is the case in both situation, how to handle the situation without ending to conclude that this kind of closing is mandatory?

Customers pay to be surrounded with women/stars when attending a club. How could this work if they could get the same service for free with star/women clubs?

As to getting a men only body building club, with the right customers setting the right ambiance, it is possible to achieve with no insigna in front. Even though, usually, those customers wont like the innuendo that could come with the men only club thing.

 

[abharsair]

The good old "others do bad things too, so it's ok to do bad things" argument

Based on my understanding it's more like "Why isn't this newsworthy as well when it's done to the other side?"

But of course I could be wrong. And for what it's worth, I find most people on both sides irritating.

 

[DArtagnan]

Based on my understanding it's more like "Why isn't this newsworthy as well when it's done to the other side?"

But of course I could be wrong. And for what it's worth, I find most people on both sides irritating.

Ah, the good old "because one thing is posted, it means all other things in the world aren't news worthy and have been specifically excluded through a fanatic-driven process" argument.

If only such things had rational support of even the remotest kind.