Pillars of Eternity - J.E. Sawyer About the Delay

[HiddenX]

I had major fun with all this non-optimal builds that used one or two dump stats and powered others. In J.E. Sawyers speak: unbalanced character builds.
Especially after the second, third play-through when you want to try something new and/or want new challenges.
a) b) c) are just examples I tried even more.

 

[Thrasher]

@SP

Well for some of us, playing those kinds of characters makes the game more fun, even IF it gimps you or makes you overpowered. The point is that balance is not an issue for us. That is the problem that Sawyer tried to solve. Imbalance.

But some of us don't think that's a problem in a single player game. But instead we value diversity more than balance. A multi-player competitive game…. that's a different story.

 

[ilm]

But are diversity and balance mutually exclusive ? I don't think that.

I don't mind thrash skills per se. I just don't want to find out 10 hours in I need to restart. I absolutely hate that.

 

[HiddenX]

I don't mind thrash skills per se. I just don't want to find out 10 hours in I need to restart. I absolutely hate that.

This happened only once in my whole gaming career:
The Elder Scrolls: Battlespire
After 3 hours I knew my first character was not good enough.
Part of the fun for me.

 

[forgottenlor]

I personally think that Sawyer has some good points, but goes too far sometimes. The examples he gives from D&D of a high charisma fighter who doesn't perform as well as a diplomat as a standard paladin, or a balanced stat cleric that never gets the highest level spells, because the player built the cleric without realizing that he needed to max out wisdom show some pitfalls. Fallout of course doesn't really suffer from this problem because there are no classes, and all the stats do something positive for the character. Sure intelligence is better than charisma, but you do profit from having a high charisma. That can't be said of most fighters in D&D.

 

[Thrasher]

But are diversity and balance mutually exclusive ? I don't think that.

Not theoretically, but practically there is a limit. The more diversity you have and the more balance you require multiplies the amount of resources you need to make the game.

The problem can not only be unbalance in character builds, but inflexibility in campaigns and world interactions that prevent the success of off the track builds.

 

[Caddy]

I like delayed. Delayed is USUALLY synonymous with AWESOMER.

 

[Couchpotato]

I like delayed. Delayed is USUALLY synonymous with AWESOMER.

Not all the time it isn't.

I have played my fair share of games that have been delayed, and still turned out terrible. So delayed games always being better is just a myth.

Still my fingers are crossed that Pillars of Eternity isn't another one.

 

[purpleblob]

I'm wondering when this game will actually be released.... What the hell do they mean by *early* 2015. That can be anywhere between Jan to June (technically first half of the year). I think it's good they've decided to delay the game and work on polish, but it's gotta be out sometime soon! I'm dying for party based RPG with lots of dialogues etc in fantasy setting.

 

[rjshae]

Well, the positive take-away I get from this is that they don't have some publisher forcing them to release it in an incomplete state; a benefit of the Kickstarter process. As long as the delay doesn't result in financial difficulties then it should be okay...

 

[max killen]

I like delayed. Delayed is USUALLY synonymous with AWESOMER.

Delayed usually means major problems not awesomer. Sounds like political promises, a lot of words...but no substance

 

[wolfgrimdark]

I am with the crowd that prefers diversity over balance. It is a single player game after all. Part of the fun is building your character the way you want. Actually I prefer games with difficulty sliders PLUS unbalanced because then you can just lower the difficulty if you run into problems.

I don't think it should be so unbalanced you can't finish the game as your character but having builds that are easy and ones that are hard are awesome. I also like lots of diversity. Games with just a handful of skills/abilities per class gets boring. I know some games give you "suggested" builds for newcomers or people not sure how to build something. I think those are great. It basically says - you can gimp yourself if not careful so if not sure use a suggested build (even if only as a template). Then the player has been warned and up to them if they want to go off on their own.

While balance and diversity not mutually exclusive I often find games seeking the most balance to be more bland and ones I seldom play through again.

 

[Deleted User]

Great post, wolfgrimdark, I pretty much agree 100%.

Give me diversity and options that are unique, interesting, powerful, weak, and have lots of interesting differences rather than perfectly balanced options.

 

[rune_74]

I like that he came out and made a comment on the delay...it's good to see.

 

[Caddy]

Delayed usually means major problems not awesomer. Sounds like political promises, a lot of words…but no substance

Angry gamer first world problems answer! I'm trying to promote positive thinking here!

 

[DorkUnderimbecile]

Seems Desslock has some critique, too.

Tweets (23. August 2014) in response to Josh E. Sawyers article on balancing RPGs and after playing the beta of PoE.



I agree 100%.

Fallout is not Project Eternity, and as far removed from an infinity engine game as an RPG can be.

Fallout's combat is not one of it's main focus. Fallout's combat is terrible and a terrible example to use.

Sawyer wants to give us either Baldur's Gate or Icewind Dale's combat, without the cheesy tactics, with a consistent all around challenge.
IE games are combat oriented, with some exploration. PE will feature a bit more roleplaying in the form of Choice and Consequences through dialogues and actions but should essentially be focused around a succession of tactical combat. If that's not your cup of tea you can wait for Torment 2.

 

[jhwisner]

Kind of reminds me of this discussion on "perfect imbalance" where a degree of asymmetry and imbalance in the options actually can make your decisions feel more interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w

More important in multiplayer, but still interesting and applicable.

 

[Archangel]

I'm wondering when this game will actually be released…. What the hell do they mean by *early* 2015. That can be anywhere between Jan to June (technically first half of the year). I think it's good they've decided to delay the game and work on polish, but it's gotta be out sometime soon! I'm dying for party based RPG with lots of dialogues etc in fantasy setting.

You played and finished D:OS?

 

[purpleblob]

I am playing D:OS now and it isn't satisfying my need for dialogue/npc interactions

 

[Couchpotato]

I am playing D:OS now and it isn't satisfying my need for dialogue/npc interactions

I agree purpleblob as good as the game is NPC interaction is not the strongest point of D:OS, but that's fine as it wasn't meant to be anyway.

Now can anyone playing the Pillars of Eternity beta tell me if the latest patch improved it. I usually don't bother playing Betas cause it ruins the game for me.

I'm willing to make an exception this time just to see what all the fuss is about.