The War in America

[txa1265]

I don't get why you can't be friends, or at least friendly, towards people with differing views.

I think a big issue is the realization that nearly EVERYTHING comes down to core human rights and existential things. Justice system? Incredibly racist and unequal based on class. Economics? classist and racist. Entire country is based on religious intolerance wrapped in 'freedom'. When the core issues of one very large group are based around the extinguishing of another group based on their religion, skin color or who they love AND when they belong to a cult that tells them that compromise is weakness... there is no way to bridge the gap. Only when that side accepts that people are who they are, that every religion AND NO religion is 100% as valid as their made-up sky wizard, that slavery still exists and is still abhorrent, and so on ... then we can talk.

 

[Pladio]

I think a big issue is the realization that nearly EVERYTHING comes down to core human rights and existential things. Justice system? Incredibly racist and unequal based on class. Economics? classist and racist. Entire country is based on religious intolerance wrapped in 'freedom'. When the core issues of one very large group are based around the extinguishing of another group based on their religion, skin color or who they love AND when they belong to a cult that tells them that compromise is weakness... there is no way to bridge the gap. Only when that side accepts that people are who they are, that every religion AND NO religion is 100% as valid as their made-up sky wizard, that slavery still exists and is still abhorrent, and so on ... then we can talk.

But you won't be able to come to that agreement if you don't talk in the first place...

 

[Carnifex]

Of course you can still be mates. Religion, politics, no topic should get so personal as to interfere with actual family/friendship relationships. I think these days that people often relax boundaries that shouldn't be lessened, and then things can deteriorate rapidly.

 

[HellRazor]

Of course you can still be mates. Religion, politics, no topic should get so personal as to interfere with actual family/friendship relationships. I think these days that people often relax boundaries that shouldn't be lessened, and then things can deteriorate rapidly.

The problem is that politics are not purely political. They have become wrapped around moral and ethical issues to a larger extent than ever before. There are some opinions and beliefs that are so abhorrent that they can't be tolerated or accepted.

 

[JDR13]

The problem is that politics are not purely political. They have become wrapped around moral and ethical issues to a larger extent than ever before. There are some opinions and beliefs that are so abhorrent that they can't be tolerated or accepted.

I'm not sure if that's anything new. I think they've always been wrapped around those kinds of issues. The difference now is that politics are more in-your-face because of social media. It's just harder to get away from now.

 

[HellRazor]

When I was a kid, my parents were always very private about who they voted for, and also told me to never discuss politics. I didn't understand that when I was a kid, but I sure do now.

I can tolerate quite a lot. I can generally understand other viewpoints, even if I don't agree with them. But when it comes to viewpoints that will result in hurting or marginalizing other human beings, that crosses a line that I cannot tolerate.

 

[Pladio]

No matter how you view it, most political choices hurt someone. It is still a very worthwhile thing to discuss - even if only to understand the other's perspective.

 

[HellRazor]

No matter how you view it, most political choices hurt someone. It is still a very worthwhile thing to discuss - even if only to understand the other's perspective.

Of course, there are degrees. Some things are more harmful than others.

And it's always difficult to rationally discuss something with someone who is fanatical and willfully ignorant, as it seems so many people are today. There is a real cult of ignorance and anti-intellectualism in the U.S. that seems to be growing and growing.

 

[SveNitoR]

I think a big issue is the realization that nearly EVERYTHING comes down to core human rights and existential things. Justice system? Incredibly racist and unequal based on class. Economics? classist and racist. Entire country is based on religious intolerance wrapped in 'freedom'. When the core issues of one very large group are based around the extinguishing of another group based on their religion, skin color or who they love AND when they belong to a cult that tells them that compromise is weakness... there is no way to bridge the gap. Only when that side accepts that people are who they are, that every religion AND NO religion is 100% as valid as their made-up sky wizard, that slavery still exists and is still abhorrent, and so on ... then we can talk.

Yes, if someone is very extreme and rigid in their views, dialogue is hard, sometimes even impossible.

But my experience is that such thinking is quite rare. Most people can talk about sensitive subjects in a calm setting (ie not a political rally or at the table of a family dinner) and see that other people think differently without going crazy about it. In groups and in public it's hard to nuance, but usually not in private.

 

[HellRazor]

Yes, if someone is very extreme and rigid in their views, dialogue is hard, sometimes even impossible.

But my experience is that such thinking is quite rare. Most people can talk about sensitive subjects in a calm setting (ie not a political rally or at the table of a family dinner) and see that other people think differently without going crazy about it. In groups and in public it's hard to nuance, but usually not in private.

People need to get out of their echo chambers, really think about things (instead of just following the crowd), and actually communicate. Good luck with that in this political climate though.

 

[Qayto]

Of course, there are degrees. Some things are more harmful than others.

And it's always difficult to rationally discuss something with someone who is fanatical and willfully ignorant, as it seems so many people are today. There is a real cult of ignorance and anti-intellectualism in the U.S. that seems to be growing and growing.

I know what you mean, but is it growing or just more visible? Social media and very loud voices. Here in the UK we have two new(ish) TV stations, I occasionally watch a bit and the right wing bias, thinly veiled hatred towards some minorities and blatant disinformation is breath taking.

 

[dteowner]

I like the majority of Trump's policies and the thought of 4 more years with Sleepy Joe putting the nation further in the ditch just makes me sick, but the bottom line is that Donald is completely loony toons. He gets a lot of stuff twisted out of context by the mainstream media (which is supposedly why he relied on Twitter so much) but this is right off his social media and it's just ridiculous. If there was ever a chance for a 3rd party to make some hay, this is it. Dementia versus Deranged- seems like a glorious opportunity.

Trump says Day 1 priority if he wins is releasing Jan. 6 rioters

Trump has said he would be a 'dictator on his first day with respect to immigration and energy production; he has now added Jan. 6 rioters to his list.

www.usatoday.com

 

[HellRazor]

I like the majority of Trump's policies and the thought of 4 more years with Sleepy Joe putting the nation further in the ditch just makes me sick, but the bottom line is that Donald is completely loony toons. He gets a lot of stuff twisted out of context by the mainstream media (which is supposedly why he relied on Twitter so much) but this is right off his social media and it's just ridiculous. If there was ever a chance for a 3rd party to make some hay, this is it. Dementia versus Deranged- seems like a glorious opportunity.

Trump says Day 1 priority if he wins is releasing Jan. 6 rioters

Trump has said he would be a 'dictator on his first day with respect to immigration and energy production; he has now added Jan. 6 rioters to his list.

www.usatoday.com

Trump had policies?

 

[Carnifex]

Anyone that votes for Trump will likely receive exactly what they deserve. I'm wringing my hands again as the usual situation prevails, out of what, three hundred and fifty some-odd millions, these are the two blokes nominated? /le sigh. The US seriously needs like four-five viable parties, then we'd see some real politicking.

 

[SveNitoR]

I think this editorial was well written:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2024/03/25/trump-bond-appeal-new-york-fraud-trial/

No matter how much one disapproves of Mr. Trump, or wishes that his presidential ambitions fail, every defendant deserves due process, including recourse to appeal. That is true even with former presidents who are as unpopular in a particular jurisdiction as Mr. Trump is in New York — and even in civil cases such as the one in question. Judges and juries err. Seeking appeal should not be effectively impossible, or expensive to the point of imposing vast and irreparable harm.
[...]
Mr. Trump might eventually be forced to pay the full judgment. In the meantime, allowing him to exhaust his legal options without pushing him toward bankruptcy is the fair and correct outcome — as it would be for any other American in the same situation.

 

[txa1265]

I think this editorial was well written:

Not really - it is pro-Trump nonsense. It distorts how the justice system in our country is incredibly biased and broken, and how catering to Trump is just the latest example.

If a normal person - ESPECIALLY a man of color - is unable to post a bond/bail, they get put in prison indefinitely. Period. All property seized. Period. If they break a gag order they're fined, held in contempt, PUT IN JAIL.

America has a bimodal 'justice' system of those who laws are used to punish and those who it is used to protect. We are seeing how that system was designed - Trump could literally commit murder on national TV and get away with it. So could Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk. White billionaires are not held accountable.

 

[SveNitoR]

Not really - it is pro-Trump nonsense. It distorts how the justice system in our country is incredibly biased and broken, and how catering to Trump is just the latest example.

If a normal person - ESPECIALLY a man of color - is unable to post a bond/bail, they get put in prison indefinitely. Period. All property seized. Period. If they break a gag order they're fined, held in contempt, PUT IN JAIL.

America has a bimodal 'justice' system of those who laws are used to punish and those who it is used to protect. We are seeing how that system was designed - Trump could literally commit murder on national TV and get away with it. So could Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk. White billionaires are not held accountable.

Sure, rich and famous people seem to get treated differently in the US, maybe especially white people. That doesn't change the fact that even Trump should get fair treatment until he has finished the appeal process.

This should of course be the norm for anyone accused of crime: Innocent until proven guilty, and if the sentence is appealed, the punishment should not be too harsh before that process is completed. So that it doesn't ruin the person's life if they are declared not guilty.

 

[Couchpotato]

Correct personal bias and court of opinion has no place in legal matters. Cold hard facts and logic do, and since he is a US citizen he is entitled to certain rights.

Basically everyone is given a fair trail and innocent till proven guilty.

Unfortunately though our legal system is a giant mess that needs reform.

 

[Carnifex]

Seizing property in NY state has always been an issue, I recall hearing that back when my family was involved in several lawsuits spanning both Pennsylvania and New York. It's literally the last thing any prosecutor seems to want to do in the state.

 

[Thiraury]

I never understood the bailsystem of the US. If you have money you can just gtfo of prison???