We dont care that you landed a spacecraft on a comet, you shirt is misogynist!

[Aubrielle]

I would say the shirt reflects a certain lack of professionalism from a guy that should be smart enough to know better, but to manufacture some sort of social crusade out of it is simply ridiculous.

Mike is an ardent feminist and in ways I think sometimes he's a better feminist than I am. He knows sexism when he sees it and - if I'm reading his argument right - he sees issues like the shirt as small but reflective of the greater problem of sexism. I don't think he was trying to "manufacture a social crusade" out of a stupid t-shirt. He's talking about it as a symptom of a larger problem, and a problem that so many people would like to pretend isn't happening. But it is. And it won't go away.

It's only a stupid t-shirt. But it's reflective of a much deeper problem, and I think that problem was what he was talking about.

But he can speak for himself, and I hope I didn't seem insulting by trying to put my own spin on his argument.

 

[txa1265]

Basically I am looking to establish a common ground for dialogue ... but it is frustrating when what ends up happening is I am willing to take a stand and actually SAY something, stand for something ... and what I get in return ... well, let's just say that many who are in this thread are much quicker to throw judgment than to state a position.

 

[Damian]

Basically I am looking to establish a common ground for dialogue … but it is frustrating when what ends up happening is I am willing to take a stand and actually SAY something, stand for something … and what I get in return … well, let's just say that many who are in this thread are much quicker to throw judgment than to state a position.

I think that is because you skirt around your position a bit and move to other topics while trying to state a position. I still dont really know your position on this shirt issue even though you made several posts in this thread. I am not sure if that is my fault or not.

 

[txa1265]

I think that is because you skirt around your position a bit and move to other topics while trying to state a position. I still dont really know your position on this shirt issue even though you made several posts in this thread. I am not sure if that is my fault or not.

Since she did such a great job describing it, I will use her words:

It's only a stupid t-shirt. But it's reflective of a much deeper problem, a problem that so many people would like to pretend isn't happening. But it is. And it won't go away.

Some people like to compartmentalize things and make each and every instance meet up to some litmus test. That isn't how reality works. Which is why I have referenced the countless studies and experiments that have demonstrated that a lifetime of being hammered with imagery showing them as merely objects created for male sexual pleasure has a very serious, and very real, and very negative effect on women.

Also, for the 'sexism deniers' ... here is the thing - let's get some common ground.
- Everyone should be able to agree that gender inequality was a legal institution even within the last 100 years in the US at least.
- We should also be able to agree that some institutions - such as Christian religions - have as a basis a 'patriarchy' ... institutionalized male dominance and inequality.
- Also, we should be able to agree that within the last 50 years we have not had equality of opportunity or access (including 'good ole boys' networks, etc).
- And finally we can demonstrate that the outcomes of all of these things are less representation at high levels and in the majority of fields, particularly 'traditional male' roles and particularly those earning the most money.
- All these being true - which is pretty basic stuff - it should be easy to agree that until such time as we have demonstrable equality of potential outcomes ... by which I mean if a dozen toddlers are sitting in a playgroup, half girls and half boys, then we should be able to say that in 50 years the education, earnings and accolades would not be correlated with gender ... until that time, it is a simple thing to say that gender based discrimination is a large and serious issue in the western world.

 

[Damian]

The problem is whether sexism is really a "big" problem.

Is a community not able to thrive with sexism?
The largest groups of people on earth are also the most sexist. India and china are very sexist and they thrive with the largest populations on earth. So at least this part is a misnomer.

Is science limited with sexism?
I have no knowledge on this. You will have to argue with someone else on this aspect.

But i lean towards it would be a problem. Though I have no idea how big of a problem it is. I do know however most inventors tend to be male, like only 10% of inventors are female. That is all i know on the subject.

 

[Aubrielle]

Well, Damian, sexism causes suffering, and it limits the growth of a society by marginalizing half its population based on antiquated ideas.

I'd say that's a fairly significant problem…

 

[Damian]

You have to define "growth" here as the largest populations on earth are the most sexist and corrupt. But corruption is for another topic.

Suffering i agree with in the sense you cant do what you want. However it isnt that bad. Because human society has always thrived when there is limitations put on it because of how resilient the human race is.

That said i am still not convinced it is a big deal as people say. If it is that much of a detriment shouldn't those societies number the least?

 

[Aubrielle]

Well I didn't mean in terms of pure population growth. Actually, you're right...population growth probably happens the fastest in the most barbaric, oppressive societies.

Maybe…'evolution' or 'progression' might have been better words. A society can't truly begin to look outward into a brighter, more actualized future until it harnesses the talents of its entire population by extending equal opportunity to everyone. Anything else is archaism.

 

[Damian]

I agree with that.

You want the best out of everyone if humanity is to progress.

 

[Aubrielle]

I agree with that.

You want the best out of everyone if humanity is to progress.

Absolutely.

 

[Thaurin]

All this talk, and not a lot of people brought up the fact that the scientist guy was bullied into tears on public television in front of thousands for something that should be harmless but isn't, apparently, because there exist a bunch of misogynists in the world. This shit goes both ways. The worst thing is, many people don't believe the abuse of males exists.

I should write an angry article about it on post it on a blog.

 

[zahratustra]

The worst thing is, many people don't believe the abuse of males exists.

Oh it exists. I can vouch for that.

 

[Aubrielle]

Who bullied him, and what was their reasoning?

 

[txa1265]

All this talk, and not a lot of people brought up the fact that the scientist guy was bullied into tears on public television in front of thousands for something that should be harmless but isn't, apparently, because there exist a bunch of misogynists in the world. This shit goes both ways. The worst thing is, many people don't believe the abuse of males exists.

I should write an angry article about it on post it on a blog.

I used to find it silly that anyone would treat abuse differently, until I saw it happen. About 20 or so years ago I had a colleague at work who was physically abused by his wife ... and he really got no support from anyone in his life, and worse yet was laughed at. Fortunately he got out and got remarried to a wonderful woman, but it was awful to see and really aged the guy.

And there was a study done showing that in a fake fight scenario in a public place, if a man was getting even slightly physical with a woman people of all ages and genders would step in ... but if a woman was fully smacking around a guy and verbally abusing there was no intercession, and even some laughing. And further, if the woman smacked the man who was getting physical, people applauded her for standing up ... whereas if the man raised a hand to the woman beating him people got very upset 'what is wrong with you'. These reflect many of the attitudes in society.

***BUT***

The reality is that while cases of men being abused by women exist, they are a minority to such an incredible extent (i.,e. <0.1%) that they are remarkable as the exceptions that prove the rule. Same for many things, such as males being gender discriminated, whites being race discriminated, Christians being religiously discriminated, and so on.

And honestly - it ALL sucks ... and we should always strive to make things as equal and fair and positive for everyone.

 

[Thaurin]

The reality is that while cases of men being abused by women exist, they are a minority to such an incredible extent (i.,e. <0.1%) that they are remarkable as the exceptions that prove the rule.

And that's where I think you're wrong. You probably have all sorts of data to back you up, but I'd wager that domestic abuse to males is vastly underreported. I've also read something about recent research into college rape that brought forth surprising numbers, as well. Furthermore, I think emotional abuse towards men is potentially much more prevalent than the other way around, having done some internet research myself after a crappy relationship and reading dozens upon dozens of horror stories from men stuck in a relationship with what probably is a borderline personality disordered woman, often with children.

These men most often have absolutely no clue what they should do (answer: run, run like the wind!).

I kind of suspect that many people are doing the exact same thing towards men as many do towards women; victim blaming, that is. There are enough knights in shining armour running to protect the fragile maidens in distress (what person today is not horrified by domestic abuse or rape, really?). Someone should also not forget the other side. The article that started this discussion, which initially didn't take very seriously, makes me angrier the longer I think about it, and half of the people participating in the debate here are lobbying for feminism, not fuming at the mouth about the injustice that was done to this man.

P.S. On another note, I wonder what the numbers on discrimination of whites is in areas where they are the minority.

 

[Thrasher]

Well if you consider henpecking a form of abuse then it works both ways.

 

[Aubrielle]

and half of the people participating in the debate here are lobbying for feminism, not fuming at the mouth about the injustice that was done to this man.

That's exactly what feminism is. Real feminism is being concerned for anyone that's abused, and trying to eradicate victim shaming of all kinds. Feminism is such a dirty word in our society because everyone thinks it's all just hairy-legged, bra-burning, ugly women that want to eradicate men. Any real feminist wants to distance themselves from this, and feminism absolutely should concern itself with men, because in the end, it's about gender equality and destroying harmful antiquated stereotypes, right?

 

[txa1265]

And that's where I think you're wrong. You probably have all sorts of data to back you up, but I'd wager that domestic abuse to males is vastly underreported.

Based on my own example, I am certain you are right.

And the same is true for male sexual abuse. Again, it is certainly an incredible minority share, but I have no doubt it is vastly under-reported, and regardless it is unacceptable.

P.S. On another note, I wonder what the numbers on discrimination of whites is in areas where they are the minority.

Here is the thing - we live in a society that is OWNED and 100% CONTROLLED by White, Male, Christians (and generally hetero as well). Therefore whereas specific individual cases of discrimination are terrible and unacceptable ... there is simply no such thing as systemic, power-changing discrimination against whites, men or Christians. None.

Doesn't exist - because of the balance of power being controlled by money, and that money being used in turn to secure the power.

 

[Thaurin]

Well if you consider henpecking a form of abuse then it works both ways.

You joke, but this can be a very serious problem, not helped by the obvious abuse applauded and laughed about in most sitcoms.

That's exactly what feminism is. Real feminism is being concerned for anyone that's abused, and trying to eradicate victim shaming of all kinds.

Yes, that's what is always claimed. Then again, the issue that the original poster brought up is all but brushed aside. To use the wording of the article itself, this is the sort of casual misandry that stops men from being confident with themselves.

Again, it is certainly an incredible minority share, but I have no doubt it is vastly under-reported, and regardless it is unacceptable.

You mentioned something less than <0.1%. That is a rather offensive estimate.

Here is the thing - we live in a society that is OWNED and 100% CONTROLLED by White, Male, Christians (and generally hetero as well).

Oh, you were talking about your own backyard. I thought I mentioned areas where whites are minority. Maybe I should have said 'societies.'

 

[Ripper]

Are you sure about the stats for male abuse, txa1265? I'm sure the percentage of sexual abuse cases involving women abusing men would be very small indeed, and I think the percentage of domestic abuse cases with male victims would certainly be a minority, but probably much higher than that.