X3: Terran Conflict

[dteowner]

Capitalism1 and 2 weren't Deutcher. But your point still stands, Alrik.

Although it's not necessary, most people play the X series as economic empire games just like Alrik says. You can play the game as a combat sim if you want, with only a small business empire to fund your military. You'll either be a pirate, a pirate hunter, or a one man genocide, but it can be done. Not sure that the game will be as good played that way, but I've got a bias there since I'm pilot-skill-retarded.

 

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Yes, I remember Capitalism. And I think I remember they sold very, very well within Germany.

 

[DArtagnan]

Now, this is the point. Most of that actually IS what makes these games - and others like the Settlers and the Anno series - so much popular here in Germany . We call it a "business simulation", alsthough this term doesn't transport everything that's in there in the German language into the english language. Like the "Wusel-Factor", for example.

And yes, it is partly because you do nothing but business !

I think that outside of Germany there isn't this genre - we (and this means magazines, too) actually call of this as a genre - that much popular than here in Germany. It's kind of a Germany-specific nieche only German developers managed to fulfill this far. Foreign developers aren't that interested or/and don't want to fulfill this niche. Perhaps it doesn't seem to give them enough profits.

Actually, apart from Civilization I don't know a singly non-DACH game developer having made a similar "business simulation" game.
Majesty and Hinterland maybe come close to that, or the famous Caesar series. But they aren't that much business-related.

If one was to describe the German gaming market, this would stand out. Because I don't know any country where this genre is as popular.

Well, if we're talking about accumulating wealth - I think that's relatively popular worldwide - whether it's in a game or not.

I think the issue, for me, is that accumulating wealth doesn't even motivate me in real life - so doing it in a virtual world with absolutely no benefit except a bigger number or stuff to facilitate bigger numbers, is the kind of goal that is about as pointless as I can possibly imagine.

I need an interesting story with good presentation, meaningful exploration, or combat with a great feel - if I'm to enjoy my space sim. I mean, what's the point of buying that huge ship with a zillion guns, if all I can do with it is to earn even more money? That's just not for me.

I guess I'm kinda demanding

 

[Tragos]

What exactly ARE you doing in this game, if not mining, trading, or running errands?

The thing with X series is that you can do whatever you want , you don't even have to accumulate wealth , flying around in your disco enjoying the scenery and smuggling weed is okay and it will open the map for you.
There is no time pressure , you can start an empire after day 300 , built fleets and take sectors from others .The big ship with zillion weapons is usually not enough to start picking on a race , you need like 20 of them + support vessels + the industry to kit them .
Combat is not great okay but exploration does pay off ( traders ) and the place is dynamic , that means wars will empty space for the winner to expand , i don't know what else you can ask from a space sim .

It is a free roam RPG without skills and you can skip the story line.

 

[DArtagnan]

The thing with X series is that you can do whatever you want , you don't even have to accumulate wealth , flying around in your disco enjoying the scenery and smuggling weed is okay and it will open the map for you.
There is no time pressure , you can start an empire after day 300 , built fleets and take sectors from others .The big ship with zillion weapons is usually not enough to start picking on a race , you need like 20 of them + support vessels + the industry to kit them .
Combat is not great okay but exploration does pay off ( traders ) and the place is dynamic , that means wars will empty space for the winner to expand , i don't know what else you can ask from a space sim .

It is a free roam RPG without skills and you can skip the story line.

Hmm, I'll give it another look I guess.

But my impression from the first two games and some videos, etc., is that the story is not presented very well and the combat is not at all exciting.

It's great if you're into free roaming without a specific purpose, but I tend to need a strong storyline or at least interesting combat/RPG elements before I can motivate myself to dedicate the kind of time I think it requires to succeed in anything.

Maybe if it was multiplayer….

 

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Well, if we're talking about accumulating wealth - I think that's relatively popular worldwide - whether it's in a game or not.

No. You're missing the point which makes these "business sims" so popular . It's about managing everything !

Accumulating wealth isn't the point. The point is the management, that's what keeps the people busy.

Or in other words : "The way is the goal".

 

[DArtagnan]

No. You're missing the point which makes these "business sims" so popular . It's about managing everything !

Accumulating wealth isn't the point. The point is the management, that's what keeps the people busy.

Or in other words : "The way is the goal".

Well, don't you think it flows together?

You don't manage something if there's no point.

Here, the point is to accumulate wealth - and that's why managing becomes interesting to some people.

The difference between myself and those who enjoy this process, is that accumulating wealth doesn't motivate me.

Trust me, I love managing stuff if I see a point

 

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Here, the point is to accumulate wealth - and that's why managing becomes interesting to some people.

No. That's not the point the average German player sees. You are "short-cutting" it too much, imho.

It's like … people building up huge constructions of tin moel railways. lso a hobby tht is popular here.

As soon as the construction is finished, people stop everything and sell the whole construction, they probably ave even worked years for. Or disassemble it agai, to begin a new construction.

They find intellectual challenge in managing those things. Accumulating wealth is uninteresting for them. It is nothing but a nice side-effect.

This explains hy the "Wusel-factor" is so important for German players. And that's why the Settlers 5 were so relatively unpopular. THis installment of the series rather looks like an RTS than anything else.

Slowly now the developers get back to the roots. They see that the Settlers won't sell much here in Germany without complicated ways of creating wares. Plus, a "Wusel-factor" is definitively needed for some. They just love seeing small to tiny inhabitants of tony "wuseling" around fulfilling tastks. That' exactly what made the very first Settlers games so famous here in Germany : Wusel-factor plus relatively complicated ways of creating wares.

Another type of players, though, liked the RTS aspect of the Settlers very much. But that was used so much within the Settlers 5 that the other types of players didn't have their own things implemented: The Wusel-factor was missing almost completely. Okay, there were citizens running around, but it didn't hve the "wuseling" anmore. It was too efficient for being a "Wusel".

You can see that "Wusel-Factor" in Tropico 1 as well. It's just tiny inhabitants walking around, fulfilling tasks. Only a fraction of the possible efficiency.
The nimations were done so tht it is just … cuteness galore.
Me, for example, I just LOVE watching all of these tiny people walking and transporting wares around !

If accumulating wealth was the main facor, then the layout of the game would have been different. Accumulating would have been much, much more efficiend - and faster !

But people LOVE tinkering about ! Yes, I think that hits it: Tinkering. That's the best expression to describe why these games are so popular.

"Tinkering games"

 

[DArtagnan]

Yeah, I think I get what you're saying.

Unfortunately, I don't think you're quite getting what I'm saying.

I claim, in fact I'm really sure about this, that for people to enjoy "tinkering" or enjoy "managing" they actually DO need a goal, or some reason.

That's not to say that the reason is they KEY - in fact, the reason is incidental. Because they just want to tinker and manage stuff.

So, we agree, actually.

The thing is, that I don't - personally - enjoy tinkering or managing with this particular goal in mind.

That's because I'm goal oriented and not "journey" oriented.

It's the same reason I can never get into MMOs solo, because I think the carrot is an illusion. The journey never interests me, if I don't believe in the destination.

That's what I'm trying to say.

 

[dteowner]

I can't speak specifically to X3, but based on X2, you're not going to play this game for the story. It's not that the story is bad, but it struck me as more like an extended, detailed tutorial than a grand epic. The story really just forced you to try different things, with a heavy emphasis on different styles of combat.

It's not a pointless sandbox, though. For example, with Morrowind you had the freedom to do whatever, but your choices made no real impact on your character or your gaming experience. Save the world, or kill 1000 rats in Seyda Neen, and the net effect was identical. The sandbox and your character within it looked basically the same at the end of either approach. I was tremendously disappointed over that. 2nd most disappointing game ever for me. With X2 (and, I assume, X3), the sandbox of someone that builds a manufacturing empire will look quite a bit different than someone that does station missions, which will look quite a bit different than someone that wants to be a small-time pirate hunter, which will look quite a bit different than someone that wants to build an armada and raze the galaxy.

If you're requiring the game to hand you specific goals, the X series will probably disappoint. If you're OK with self-assigned goals that *rapidly* expand (I want to build an energy production loop—simple one line goal—get the solar factory, which needs a crystal fab, which needs a silicon mine, which needs energy from the solar factory, which needs 3 transports to keep the inputs balanced, which needs an M3 patrol to keep the Khaak from destroying the transports, which needs a missle factory to supply the patrol, which needs…and so forth), then this series is the bee's knees.

So the goals are there, but I'm not sure if it's what you're needing. "I want to" for motivation, more than "The game says".

 

[DArtagnan]

I simply want a meaningful goal, and I don't care whether the game inspires me or I do the work myself.

But without a good immersive story, meaningful exploration (which can mean many things, but to me it's about discovery), exciting combat, or some kind of multiplayer element - I simply fail to see the appeal.

I can only kid myself for so long into believing something imaginary.

I played Frontier back in - what - 1992?

So, I've played all I need to play of huge hollow worlds that have no meaning, beyond accumulating "stuff" that you can't really do anything interesting with.

Not beyond "managing" or "tinkering" as Alrik puts it.

I can't go have fun killing things, because the combat is boring, and I can't "defeat" anyone - because there's no story element to achieve, and I can't share the experience with friends to make it meaningful - and I assume exploration will not yield much in the way of unique encounters, puzzles, story elements, or anything particularly interesting.

Basically, I see a giant world meant for one purpose - to "build an empire" with no purpose except to simply be an empire.

 

[dteowner]

As a fan of the game, I hate to turn away a potential convert, but for you this game might not be the best investment of 100+ hours.

 

[DArtagnan]

As a fan of the game, I hate to turn away a potential convert, but for you this game might not be the best investment of 100+ hours.

I'm bound to check it out regardless, but I was just trying to clarify if the game is what I think it is.

The idea of space exploration in a huge universe is appealing, no matter how much I will eventually be bored

 

[Thrasher]

I'm in the same boat, IF exploration actually uncovers some cool and unique things, rather than just more resources to collect or planets to develop....

 

[JDR13]

For how much of those 100+ hours do you actually have to be present though? I heard that... once you have your factories up and running, and well defended, you can just leave the game running all day to build up your resources.

 

[dteowner]

There are guys that run unattended SETA (a time compression device that makes each "tick" cover 10 "ticks"). I used the hell out of SETA (you'd go insane flying across 5 sectors at real speed, even in a fast ship), but I never ran unattended longer than a potty break. So for me at least, that's 100+ hours of butt in the chair.

With X2, it was tough to keep your transports from getting killed, which would pooch your economy in a real hurry if you weren't there to replace it. Egosoft introduced patrols to help with that, but I didn't build enough factories to pay for the patrol ships. I felt like running unattended was cheating and un-fun anyway.

 

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Basically, I see a giant world meant for one purpose - to "build an empire" with no purpose except to simply be an empire.

In psychology, there are two ways of thinking :

- goal oriented
- function oriented

You are goal oriented.

But there are also people who are function oriented, in terms of thinking.

Don't do the mistake of assuming that there is only one way of thinking.

 

[DArtagnan]

In psychology, there are two ways of thinking :

- goal oriented
- function oriented

You are goal oriented.

But there are also people who are function oriented, in terms of thinking.

Don't do the mistake of assuming that there is only one way of thinking.

Alrik, you might do yourself a favor if you actually read what I said.

My entire point is that the game probably isn't for me - and then I've detailed why, and that's BECAUSE of my way of thinking. Your way of thinking is what makes the game for you.

How could you have missed that point?

 

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Because you insisted that this game was about accumulating wealth.

 

[DArtagnan]

Because you insisted that this game was about accumulating wealth.

No, I insisted that was the (incidental) goal.

The goal is not "what it's about" - as I've already agreed the game is about "tinkering" or "managing".

Since I'm goal-oriented, it's the goal that matters to me.

I'm not saying it has to matter to anyone else, now am I.