We dont care that you landed a spacecraft on a comet, you shirt is misogynist!

Funny, I stumble on this article and this is the shirt I'm wearing to work today. Can I be "sexist" too??

Thaurin said:

Funny, I stumble on this article and this is the shirt I'm wearing to work today. Can I be "sexist" too??

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According to a lot of ignorant people, indeed you are

How DARE you enjoy looking at beautiful fantasy women!

There is something to be said for not always assuming the worst about people. Applies to a lot of situations in life.

Actually, I'm a little concerned by how some people brush off this fellow as looking like a loser. Seems to me that it sounds a little like saying a woman who dresses sexy is looking like a whore.

Thaurin said:

Actually, I'm a little concerned by how some people brush off this fellow as looking like a loser. Seems to me that it sounds a little like saying a woman who dresses sexy is looking like a whore.

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If you're concerned when encountering ignorance on that level, you must live in constant fear.

I suppose this isn't the time to point out that such a position is the NORM, not the exception

A lot of people are genuinely stupid enough to think "sexism" when they see something like that.

If the amount of people is less than 50% of adults - I'd be surprised.

Well, "concern" wasn't the right word. I wonder, though, what the feminists' reaction would be if it were a woman wearing a shirt depicting muscular men. Would the public outcry be the same? I also fail to see how an image of a sexy woman is tantamount to "objectifying" women, as if that makes it the only quality of importance.

Objectifying a woman, quite literally, would be more like producing a Real Doll of one for the purposes of having sex (or thoughtful, although slightly one-sided, conversations) with it.

Thaurin said:

Funny, I stumble on this article and this is the shirt I'm wearing to work today. Can I be "sexist" too??

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I certainly wouldn't call you a sexist for it. This thread has become quite long, but my early post describes my view as best I can. I also don't describe him as a loser - I'm just responding to arguments that contain that assertion.

I've now got into longer debate with Turjan about whether someone wearing such a shirt when acting as the professional representative of a major science team on television might be a bit helpful, or a bit unhelpful.

Though we've become pedantic, I find it quite interesting, but I see how we might lose focus on the original points.

Well, personally, I feel it is a bit outrageous that the guy felt he had to apologize of all things for the clothes he chose to wear that morning. If that is progress in the fight for gender equality, then yes, maybe feminism has gone too far in some corners.

Thaurin said:

Well, personally, I feel it is a bit outrageous that the guy felt he had to apologize of all things for the clothes he chose to wear that morning. If that is progress in the fight for gender equality, then yes, maybe feminism has gone too far in some corners.

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I agree with that too - certainly too far in this case. It was dreadful watching the poor man make a tearful televised apology. Absolutely appalling nonsense.

The maximum extent of the repercussions should have been a word from his manager saying, "Matt, that shirt - on the telly? Did you have to, mate?" Cue laughter, and let's maybe not do that next time.

Here is the reality:

Sexism exists. Period. That is reality. Gender oppression exists in large parts of the world. Hostile workplaces are all over the place.

We do not live in a vacuum ... so when you choose to wear a shirt that objectifies women in a field where it is proven and demonstrated that non-acceptance of women and hostile worplaces are a serious issue ... then YES IT IS SEXIST. And it is a problem.

When we actually have demonstrable equality - which to be clear WE DO NOT - then we can live in D'Artagnan's utopia where we can all just be happy and enjoy beautiful people of both genders. Until then, let's make an effort to actually make things better - and realize that contributing to the constant barrage of sexual-objectification imagery has been demonstrated to be a problem. And it continues to be. And if you choose to do so ... that is your choice.

Yes yes, let's let the ignorant dictate how we behave - and let's not be open and honest but fret about the wonders of nature that's given to us.

Let's pretend "objectification" is the real issue and not the people who're stupid enough to misinterpret what they're seeing.

Let's pretend that nakedness is the real issue, instead of the people who're stupid enough to focus on it as the only aspect of the female gender.

Let's not have violence or sex in our entertainment because there are violent and sexist people in the world.

Let's make skin color an issue and let's not be allowed to talk openly about the reality of culture differences because racism exists.

In short, let's be complete morons.

It's our choice.

Sorry, TXA, but your approach is destructive to us all and it's based on ignorance and misplaced sympathy. I'm not going there.

DArtagnan said:

Yes yes, let's let the ignorant dictate how we behave - and let's not be open and honest but fret about the wonders of nature that's given to us.

Let's not have violence or sex in our entertainment because there are violent and sexist people in the world.

Let's make skin color an issue and let's not be allowed to talk openly about the reality of culture differences because racism exists.

In short, let's be complete morons.

It's our choice.

Sorry, TXA, but your approach is destructive to us all and it's based on ignorance and misplaced sympathy. I'm not going there.

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Um - no. Mine is based on research and reality. Yours is based on being sexist and wanting to maintain the good old days where women accepted that it was their primary function to provide eye candy for the male-dominated society - as you have stated repeatedly.

If a woman is a scientist and she is constantly evaluated based on her clothes and appearance ... THAT IS SEXIST. Period. You dn't get to debate it - it just IS. And it is WRONG. Period.

Ignorance is not accepting that sexism exists and is a problem.

Ignorance is making light of situations where women are expected to be able to function as intellectual/professional equals while surrounded by imagery depicting them solely as objects for male pleasure.

Sure it is true what was said before - you have to pick your battles. But just like every other fight against oppression or for reform - it seems to never be the right time to discuss it.

When women get raped in the western world, we seek to blame them - and classes are taught to women about what not to wear and how not to get raped ... instead of teaching men to NOT FUCKING RAPE! That is simply wrong ... and while you might say 'but that is different' - these things exist on a continuum.

When women are subjected to direct harassment in society and the workplace, we tell THEM to have a thicker skin and have a sense of humor, instead of teaching men to treat others with respect.

And the sad thing is that you are calling MY position destructive - when all it seeks if fair and equal treatment for all regardless of race, color, gender or sexual orientation. How is THAT destructive?

The simple answer is that it is destructive only to those who do NOT believe in those things. For those who have shown repeatedly that they believe the primary function of women is eye candy, for those who have implied that women are intellectually inferior, for those who seek to maintain a male-dominated society.

I understand your point too txa1265, and I wouldn't worry about Dartagnan's relentless non-arguments, dripping with condescension. But we must be also be rational and proportionate in situations that are not black and white. As I have been arguing, I do think the shirt was unhelpful in this context - it was an error to wear it. However, I think this is a lovely man, who may well have had the shirt given to him by an anime-loving female friend, wearing it proudly on his big day without thinking twice about it.

To then have people shouting "GAH! Three steps backward for humankind! He must answer for this!" is preposterous, massively unfair, and a lose/lose situation.

Ripper said:

I understand your point too txa1265, and I wouldn't worry about Dartagnan's relentless non-arguments, dripping with condescension. But we must be also be rational and proportionate in situations that are not black and white. As I have been arguing, I do think the shirt was unhelpful in this context - it was an error to wear it. However, I think this is a lovely man, who may well have had the shirt given to him by an anime-loving female friend, wearing it proudly on his big day without thinking twice about it.

To then have people shouting "GAH! Three steps backward for humankind! He must answer for this!" is preposterous, massively unfair, and a lose/lose situation.

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Haha ... Totally agree, which is where the whole 'pick you battles' thing comes in.

txa1265 said:

Um - no. Mine is based on research and reality. Yours is based on being sexist and wanting to maintain the good old days where women accepted that it was their primary function to provide eye candy for the male-dominated society - as you have stated repeatedly.

If a woman is a scientist and she is constantly evaluated based on her clothes and appearance … THAT IS SEXIST. Period. You dn't get to debate it - it just IS. And it is WRONG. Period.

Ignorance is not accepting that sexism exists and is a problem.

Ignorance is making light of situations where women are expected to be able to function as intellectual/professional equals while surrounded by imagery depicting them solely as objects for male pleasure.

Sure it is true what was said before - you have to pick your battles. But just like every other fight against oppression or for reform - it seems to never be the right time to discuss it.

When women get raped in the western world, we seek to blame them - and classes are taught to women about what not to wear and how not to get raped … instead of teaching men to NOT FUCKING RAPE! That is simply wrong … and while you might say 'but that is different' - these things exist on a continuum.

When women are subjected to direct harassment in society and the workplace, we tell THEM to have a thicker skin and have a sense of humor, instead of teaching men to treat others with respect.

And the sad thing is that you are calling MY position destructive - when all it seeks if fair and equal treatment for all regardless of race, color, gender or sexual orientation. How is THAT destructive?

The simple answer is that it is destructive only to those who do NOT believe in those things. For those who have shown repeatedly that they believe the primary function of women is eye candy, for those who have implied that women are intellectually inferior, for those who seek to maintain a male-dominated society.

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You don't understand.

I won't get into your massive misconception about sexism and what I want the world to be like - as you don't have the first clue about that one. Your cheap shot way of making this about imaginary sexism and what not is worthy of the ignorance I'm attributing to your position, that's for sure.

I know you're a decent guy wanting the world to be a better place. You just get all emotional all the time, which makes you lose sight of reality.

But it means you have empathy and your heart is in the right place.

It's the whole way you go about it that's working against your positive agenda.

But I see this has turned personal and all "let's pat each other on the back for failing to argue rationally" - so it's rather useless, isn't it

You used to have more style than that, unlike these new guys who let their egos bruise so easily - because they can't keep it rational and focus on the issue.

But it's no biggie, and I'll leave you to it.

DArtagnan said:

But I see this has turned personal and all "let's pat each other on the back for failing to argue rationally" - so it's rather useless, isn't it

You used to have more style than that, but it's no biggie. I'll leave you to it.

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It's a bit rich to write multiple posts of condescending insults, such as "ignorant", "genuinely stupid", and "complete morons", and then say "I see this has all turned personal." It portrays an astonishing lack of self-awareness. As for "failing to argue rationally", I think you ought to look to your own non-arguments.

Your previous post was a laundry list of assertions and prejudices, backed up with the statement that those who disagree are, of course, morons.

Then, typically, when these comments are challenged you respond with sentences like, "And yet, that is what I believe" or "That is certainly an opinion". These are logical truisms: propositions that state nothing beyond what is implied by their own terms. Literally, non-arguments.

You might then add something like your earlier classic, "your position is not your position", which is to say, X ≠ X.

All this nonsense drives the conversation into the ground, and then you sign off with a wink, and smug comment. I may not be the first person to have observed this.

Sometimes you say helpful things and are quite nice, though.

Well there are certainly reasons this thing blew up. I mean the shirt was certainly unprofessional at a time when the whole world was watching. Of course mocking photos would go viral. Should artlicles have been written about it? No.
But then it was picked up by the "manosphere" who just need reasons to cry about feminism and how bad men have it nowadays. I'm guessing he's a good guy and doean't really want such advocates.

So txa1265, are you saying the shirt somehow forces women in the scientific field to be objectified? A big leap i must say.

I'm just amazed that Mike can function with all the oppression in the world that he amplifies so he can feel guilty over it.

I would think that women would be far more insulted that men would think a woman would alter her career path over a shirt. I, for one, credit women with every bit the same determination and self-assurance that men possess, but clearly there are still sexists in the world that think women are shrinking violets that require special protection.

I would say the shirt reflects a certain lack of professionalism from a guy that should be smart enough to know better, but to manufacture some sort of social crusade out of it is simply ridiculous.

Well no one is perfect. We all make mistakes. Some mistakes are overreactions, and some are not avoiding problems and not using common sense.

But no one should be verbally castrated for it.

Overreaction seems to be the norm. Just a sign of the times, sadly.