Deus Ex: Human Revolution - Boss Fights Were Outsourced

[DoctorNarrative]

And if you don't have the stun gun? The point isn't the difficulty, it's the change in rules.

They give you everything you need to win easily in every boss room. Guns, grenades and other items. Not having the right build is honestly no excuse for not doing well against them, everything you need to change tactics is right there.

The problem with them is the fact you need to play differently than you want to.

 

[joxer]

Lemme add more to it... SG works like charm also on 2nd boss, you only need to fry 'er about 10 times (aim for the head).

 

[Ovenall]

Well as others have said, the first part of your definition rules out every action rpg ever made, including the gothic series and the elder scrolls games. Now if you really don't think those are RPGs then it's fair enough to say that you wouldn't think DEHR is one as well, but most people would disagree with you.

The second part of your description about having ability progression and directing a character certainly applies to DEHR. It's not deep ability progression, but plenty of RPGs don't have deep ability progression. I'd say it's deeper then Risen or Gothic for example (both also having fairly shallow progression). And you certainly make choices as you play. If a deeper system of choice and consequence is required to be a RPG then you just ruled out many classic turn based RPGs.

Again, I agree that DEx is sort of kind of an RPG if you squint at it. I'm not saying that it is in no way an RPG.

And yes, to me the Gothic(s) are mostly an action game. The Gothic games made themselves more RPG-ish in that they gave very vague maps and clues as to what to do… You had to almost memorize where the various characters were in the game. Your journal, for instance, might mention that you need to talk to Joe, but wouldn't bother to help remind you where Joe was, even if you had already spoken to him. This forced you to "live" in the world. And agreed, the Gothic character progression was sort of shallow. I haven't played Risen.

Apparently my opinions on this are different than others'. I'm fine with that. Why everyone wants me to pin down my exact thoughts on RPG is a bit of a mystery, as I've said over and over that it is partially an RPG. My larger point is that the game is kind of cheesy overall… The writing, the character models, the voice work, the gimmicky human sized "air vents" all over the place… and it takes itself so, so seriously. Comes across like a middling Canadian TV show. No one wants to bring any of that up, apparently.

As far as the earlier question as to why I haven't played the original Fallout games: I only recently (7 years or so) got back into video games . I played them as a kid, but skipped 1990-2004 or so… I'm 40 by the way, and had a lot going on in my 20s and 30s… Got back into them when I got laid off from work. I might try out Fallout from GOG one day.

 

[joxer]

I say it's RPG. And it's not FPS with RPG elements (like Mass Effect 2) nor action game with RPG elements (that'd be Diablo). Hell, I'm hardly shooting anything and doing some action there while sneaking… Right.
It's not like Gothic (since you've mentioned it in one of previous posts) also as there is no sex scene, only innuendo you get talking to slats. Speaking about sex, it's not like original two Fallouts. But it's still RPG. IMO. You may still say otherwise, your call.

What now? Continue with the irrelevant arguing? Some of us will still say it's RPG some will say it's FPS, some will say it's sneaking, some will admit it's a hybrid of several genres, etc. Who cares, really? It's a good game. It's just not GOTY.
And it desperately needs more boobs.

 

[Thrasher]

You have GOT to be kidding. I have never seen more boobalicious whores on display in a game before.

 

[joxer]

Really? Try to touch one (pair?).
A game about rotten society (future), my arse. Can you feel it? No you can't. That's why it ain't GOTY.
And btw, where are aliens (grays) from previous Deuses? I miss massacring those.
Then again… There is no radiation either.

In any case I've just killed boss#2 and in a room almost near that one was a certain weapon upgrade - cooling system. Written on it that it's ment to be used on big guns and:
Pulse Rifle!
Hey, I want that (Fallout) rifle in a game like this, where do I get one?

Also a note… If playing nonleathal, I mean trying to be nonleathal… Except bosses I found 2 more fails. One I mentioned before, if you break the wall where an enemy is on the other side near it, you'll kill that enemy. You can't just "send him to sleep" by any means. Which is bad. Second problem is if two enemies are next to each other, but one is sitting, your skill of taking down 2 enemies at the same time doesn't work! You'll stun one, but the other one will be untouched. And will attack you. And you should have at least 2 full batteries in this case, but will not get the ghost bonus since you'll be seen because of this fail. Luckily you can override this fail by using PEPS, thank god for that weapon, I love it.
Add to this a problem I've mentioned with corrupt savegames by turning off the PC the while game is running… And possibly more issues I've yet to discover… This game needs a patch. Let's just hope they won't make bosses immune to stun gun in a new patch now that we know it's a cure for those pests.

 

[Jack]

You say that as though you think DXHR should be excluded because you don't see it as a "real" RPG. It's undoubtedly "RPG-lite" but I'd be curious if you can define why it isn't an RPG.

Player skill is more important than character skill. You could finish the game without ever spending a praxis point.

 

[joxer]

Without spending a praxis point? Sorry but you cannot. There are certain areas where you must have one of these:
- hacking above 1 to open a certain door
- jumping high to get into another room you can't unlock
- bull strength to destroy a wall that leads into that area

Oh, you may use the gadget that unlocks doors instead of putting 1 praxis point (or 2 when unlocking a new ability) into any of those 3 skills? Get serious, there is no endless source of those, you won't gather many of them. And no, I've searched everywhere and there is no pocket datastore with the door password on it!

But then again since you'll still say I'm wrong, please provide us a savegame getting on final boss where you didn't spend a praxis point at all.

 

[DoctorNarrative]

Every critical hack is only level 1. I assume it's quite possible to beat the game without spending any praxis. They intentionally make none of the powers or upgrades required, which would mean none are ever required.

It's certainly a skill-based shooter, as was Deus Ex to a slightly lesser extent. No one is saying this game is an old-school pure RPG.

 

[joxer]

So you're saying, a real fan should play on "deus ex" difficulty without spending a praxis point just to prove... What exactly?

 

[Ovenall]

RPG goodness right there: Leveling optional. Can't get much more "streamlined" than that.

 

[BillSeurer]

Why does being an RPG require "leveling" at all? Levels are a crutch made for table top games to reduce their complexity which is completely unnecessary on a computer game.

 

[Alrik Fassbauer]

Well, I guess the "leveling" thing is in there because it distinguishes RPGs from shooters.

I mean - if you strip RPGs off everything, you've got nothing but a shooter. Where is the difference, then ?

It's like ... The borders get blurred. ONe won't be able to tell anymore whether a meal is of the one sort or of the other ... Difficult, the only example that comes to my mind is the difference between pancakes & Crêpes ... Where is the border, the difference between both ? And if both are basuically the same - why don't have both ONE name, then ?

 

[BillSeurer]

Why "leveling" though? You could use some other mechanism to show you are getting better at stuff. It's not like in the "real world" you suddenly go up a level and get better at everything and get harder to kill.

 

[Ovenall]

I was making a joke. I agree that "leveling" as it is done in most games is not strictly necessary. But I would argue that some form of character progression or change over time/experience is integral to an RPG... to me at least.

You can take this to any absurd extreme. I guess one could claim that chess is an RPG in that you are assuming the role of an all-powerful being controlling a monarchy and it's army... Super Mario Brothers is an RPG as you "become" the beleaguered but nimble plumber on his quest to save the princess... Hey, I made a meaningful "choice" to grab that powerup, and it had "consequences"...

Etc.

There will never be any perfect immutable definition of RPG.

And still, none of this addresses the cheese-ball aspect of Deus Ex human evolution...

 

[DeepO]

Player skill is more important than character skill. You could finish the game without ever spending a praxis point.

Yeah, on my playthrough I was quite paying attention to this and it´s definitely possible, though I´d add that imo even more than a matter of twitch skills, it´s a matter of exploration and resource management (and I´m pretty sure some of the side quests can´t be finished without praxis investments, but that´s besides the point).
However, the fact that investing into character development isn´t absolutely necessary for finishing the game doesn´t mean the character development is absent.

It would most likely suck in a more fully-fledged RPG, but in a sneaker/shooter with RPG elements whose perhaps main selling point is supposed player´s freedom in how to approach things, this may as well be quite fitting.

the embarrassing ponytail

I disagree.

 

[Dhruin]

Player skill is more important than character skill. You could finish the game without ever spending a praxis point.

Hence one of the reasons it's RPG-lite. Still, you want to make spending points the basis of an RPG? If I hold a PnP session and noone levels, that means we're no longer playing an RPG?

I disagree.

We can't all have good taste.

 

[JDR13]

And btw, where are aliens (grays) from previous Deuses? I miss massacring those.

Spoiler: Possible reference…

You don't see any Grays in DX:HR, but there's mention of some "foreign life forms" in an email that you find on a computer in a hidden room towards the end of the game. I took it as a reference to the Grays.

 

[PegasusOrgans]

@Ovenall, I would love to hear what you think is a proper RPG. I hope you don't mention JRPGs as those, by the definitions I've seen in this thread, are not RPGs at all. Also, I never saw any of my characters change clothes in Wizardry. My choices in Might and Magic never seemed to matter. And latter Ultimas required no strategy during combat. For some reason, you are holding Bioware up as some sainted example of "doing RPGs right". There is no comparison on this entire planet that could make Mass Effect seem like Baldur's Gate, and the fact you expected anyone to believe that seems insulting. BTW, you must have not played that either, as that was the same time period as Fallout 1/2, and even Deus Ex 1…. wow. And you are telling us what RPGs are? For shame.

 

[Couchpotato]

@Ovenall, I would love to hear what you think is a proper RPG. I hope you don't mention JRPGs as those, by the definitions I've seen in this thread, are not RPGs at all. Also, I never saw any of my characters change clothes in Wizardry. My choices in Might and Magic never seemed to matter. And latter Ultimas required no strategy during combat. For some reason, you are holding Bioware up as some sainted example of "doing RPGs right". There is no comparison on this entire planet that could make Mass Effect seem like Baldur's Gate, and the fact you expected anyone to believe that seems insulting. BTW, you must have not played that either, as that was the same time period as Fallout 1/2, and even Deus Ex 1…. wow. And you are telling us what RPGs are? For shame.

You wont get a clear answer from him. I had the same argument with him on the same topic. You wont win. Every Bio-ware game is a holy relic to some people or hes just neutral and accepts every game. Everyone has different opinions.

Just be careful he doesn't call you a person he is glad he doesn't know just because your beliefs are different than his.